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 Post subject: Chopin 3 Mazurkas and Beethoven Sonata op.31-2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:16 pm 
Hello,
I'm a piano player as "amateur".
I have begun again to play after many years of no-activity,
after hearing a concert of Pogorelich and having discovered some Sofronitzki
recordings.
I'm 44 years old (and not 144 as suggested by my playing style) and I've recorded
more than 3 hours of music.
Hand on revolver, and shoot at me immediately, or I'll send these other recordings.
Other words on me if and when the recordings will be accepted on site.
I begin with 3 Chopin's Mazurkas and Beethoven's Sonata op. 31/2.
Digital piano Kawai mp-9500 directly to the computer, with a reverb and an
equalization.
Thanks to all,
Sandro "Sarrasani" Bisotti

Chopin Mazurka op 24-4
Chopin Mazurka op 30-2
Chopin Mazurka op 30-3
Beethoven Sonata op.31-2 I mov
Beethoven Sonata op.31-2 II mov
Beethoven Sonata op.31-2 III mov


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin 3 Mazurkas and Beethoven Sonata op.31-2
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:29 am
Posts: 191
Location: Bloomington, IN
Welcome! I haven't listened to everything, but from what I've heard, you've no reason to be ashamed. Your playing is assured and musical. I find the digital sound a bit dry, and IMO at your level of playing it does you a disservice. If you can get to a real piano and record there, I'd be very interested to hear it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:00 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9637
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I listened to the Mazurkas so far, and they are extremely good. Of course these will be accepted on the site, that digital Kawai sounds pretty good to me, and technically your playing can not be faulted. You do take extreme liberties with the tempo sometimes - not so much in the 30-3 and not too bad in the 30-2, but a bit wilful in the 24-4. The start and ending of 24-3 are rather protracted, and in places you seem to get a bit too excited. Don't get influenced too much by Pogorelich's ideosyncrasies !

Some things I noticed:

- In the 24-4 in bar 8 and similar, I think you play the 3rd LH note as a D instead of D flat. Is that in your edition like that ?

- In the 30-2, in the middle section, you play a sort of dotted rhythm, is it written like that in your score ? You are very secure in the tricky double-note section though I am reassured you have one or two tiny slips as well there :)

- At the end of 30-2 there is the weirdest echo-reverb I ever heard. What happened ?

Great quality recordings, as schmontz said, assured and musical. I did not find the digital sound too dry, and in fact would not have known it was digital if you had not mentioned it. Welcome to the site !

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:23 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
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Hello. The mazurkas sound very good to me too. Interesting interpretations with tempo and dynamics. The only thing that bothered me is the D-flat that Techneut mentioned in the 24/3.

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my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:34 pm 
techneut wrote:
> I listened to the Mazurkas so far, and they are extremely good.

Thank you for this and other considerations.


> that digital Kawai sounds pretty good to me,

A very realistic wooden keyboard with the entire mechanism up to hammers.
The hand-keyboard feeling is very similar to a real piano.... a toy, but very
satisfying to play.

> You do take extreme liberties with the tempo sometimes

Chopin told his pupils : - Understand the "cantabile" (phrasing) from Malibran, Grisi,
Lablache, etc.. (all opera singers of his time). The "bel canto" style he loves and often
purpose in is "making melody". These singers DO NOT sing with the metronome, this
is sure. I'think that tempo is a variable of psychic meanings of the music, moment by moment
(conserving if is possible a decent cohesion of the piece).
But it's obvious that kind of approach can be sympathetic or not....

About Pogorelich..... in thes last years he do not use "rubato", only plays in very slow
tempo the slow tempo themselves (or which he think to be "slow tempo"). My Noctunes
(the 2 I'll send), I admit, are afflicted by this Pogorelich (the last Pogorelich) fascination,
but not these mazurkas..... IMHO, obvious.


> - In the 24-4 in bar 8 and similar, I think you play the 3rd LH note as a D instead of D flat. Is that in your edition like that ?

Very interesting. It's so in the Curci edition (but not in Dover). Thank you also for this.

> - In the 30-2, in the middle section, you play a sort of dotted rhythm, is it written like that in your score ?

30-2 or 30-3 (the longer of the 2)? Sorry I don't understand.... If tou speak of middle section of 30-3: yes, the dotted rythm is so in Dover edition


> You are very secure in the tricky double-note section though I am reassured you have one or two tiny slips as well there :)

:D :) :oops: The advantages of the amateur over "pro" : 3 days to work about 3 minutes of relative easy music,
instead of 3 hours of difficult music to play in today's and tomorrow recitals......


- At the end of 30-2 there is the weirdest echo-reverb I ever heard. What happened ?

:oops:

> Welcome to the site !


Which was the Groucho Marx phrase about the club that accept him ? :)
No, really very happy of this because I love this site' philosophy and reality.
I'll send soon other my recordings.
Thank you,
Sandro "Sarrasani" Bisotti


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:35 pm 
techneut wrote:
> I listened to the Mazurkas so far, and they are extremely good.

Thank you for this and other considerations.


> that digital Kawai sounds pretty good to me,

A very realistic wooden keyboard with the entire mechanism up to hammers.
The hand-keyboard feeling is very similar to a real piano.... a toy, but very
satisfying to play.

> You do take extreme liberties with the tempo sometimes

Chopin told his pupils : - Understand the "cantabile" (phrasing) from Malibran, Grisi,
Lablache, etc.. (all opera singers of his time). The "bel canto" style he loves and often
purpose in is "making melody". These singers DO NOT sing with the metronome, this
is sure. I'think that tempo is a variable of psychic meanings of the music, moment by moment
(conserving if is possible a decent cohesion of the piece).
But it's obvious that kind of approach can be sympathetic or not....

About Pogorelich..... in thes last years he do not use "rubato", only plays in very slow
tempo the slow tempo themselves (or which he think to be "slow tempo"). My Noctunes
(the 2 I'll send), I admit, are afflicted by this Pogorelich (the last Pogorelich) fascination,
but not these mazurkas..... IMHO, obvious.


> - In the 24-4 in bar 8 and similar, I think you play the 3rd LH note as a D instead of D flat. Is that in your edition like that ?

Very interesting. It's so in the Curci edition (but not in Dover). Thank you also for this.

> - In the 30-2, in the middle section, you play a sort of dotted rhythm, is it written like that in your score ?

30-2 or 30-3 (the longer of the 2)? Sorry I don't understand.... If tou speak of middle section of 30-3: yes, the dotted rythm is so in Dover edition


> You are very secure in the tricky double-note section though I am reassured you have one or two tiny slips as well there :)

:D :) :oops: The advantages of the amateur over "pro" : 3 days to work about 3 minutes of relative easy music,
instead of 3 hours of difficult music to play in today's and tomorrow recitals......


- At the end of 30-2 there is the weirdest echo-reverb I ever heard. What happened ?

:oops:

> Welcome to the site !


Which was the Groucho Marx phrase about the club that accept him ? :)
No, really very happy of this because I love this site' philosophy and reality.
I'll send soon other my recordings.
Thank you,
Sandro "Sarrasani" Bisotti


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9637
Location: Netherlands
Sandro Bisotti wrote:
> - In the 30-2, in the middle section, you play a sort of dotted rhythm, is it written like that in your score ?

30-2 or 30-3 (the longer of the 2)? Sorry I don't understand.... If tou speak of middle section of 30-3: yes, the dotted rythm is so in Dover edition

No, I did mean 30-2. See attached image, section starts at the p sign. You play the two eights as a dotted 8th and a 16th. It's not bad, I suppose Chopin could well have written it like that.

Sandro Bisotti wrote:
Sandro "Sarrasani" Bisotti

Some decades ago, we used to have a touring circus named "Sarrasani" here. Not sure if they were Italian or not. What does it mean ?

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Last edited by techneut on Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:04 pm 
[quote="techneut

>No, I did mean 30-2. See attached image, section starts at the p sign. You play the two eights as a dotted 8th and a 16th.

I do not play exactly as a dotted 8th and a 16th (775 and 225). I play about 670 and 330... :o

> It's not bad, I suppose Chopin could well have written it like that.

For Chopin, you'll know, the moment of writing music for the editor was a sad moment.
Head-ache in that days, and the next day he played the printed music with "deviations" on the text he licensed.

>Some decades ago, we used to have a touring circus named "Sarrasani" here. Not sure if they were Italian or not. What does it mean ?

Sarrasani is a german Circus. A theatral pieces of Thomas Bernhard spoke about it,
and from this fact my nickname (in an italian blog) was derivated.


Thank you,
Sandro "Sarrasani" Bisotti


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:33 pm 
[quote="techneut"]

> - In the 24-4 in bar 8 and similar, I think you play the 3rd LH note as a D instead of D flat. Is that in your edition like that ?

Above all, thanks to all to have listened .
This bar 8 of 24-4 is a problem unsolved for me:
Dover edition LH (left hand) bar 8 : Ab and after this two bichords Ab-Gb.
At bar 9 there is a Db as first note but I play it correctly. Let me understand, please.
Thank you again,
Sandro.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9637
Location: Netherlands
Sandro Bisotti wrote:
This bar 8 of 24-4 is a problem unsolved for me:
Dover edition LH (left hand) bar 8 : Ab and after this two bichords Ab-Gb.
At bar 9 there is a Db as first note but I play it correctly. Let me understand, please.

Ah darn... I meant RH of course ! And it's not bar 8 but bar 16. I get easily confused these days :wink: See image. You play D instead of D flat here.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Last edited by techneut on Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:01 pm 
[quote="techneut"]

> You play D instead of D flat here.

because I'm an idiot. Now I had to record this mazurka again.
Thank you.

Sandro.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9637
Location: Netherlands
Sandro Bisotti wrote:
because I'm an idiot. Now I had to record this mazurka again.

Sorry :D
But you should not feel like you have to re-record a piece for one read mistake. If anybody would notice it at all, just say you use an Albanian Chopin edition, or something like that.

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:43 pm 
> But you should not feel like you have to re-record a piece for one read mistake.

1) The mistake is at soprano (singing part)

2) Another discovery (of mine, this one) is the tempo indication: Moderato.
Dover edition suggests semiquaver=132. Or "moderato" or "132" are wrong.
I'll re-record the mazurka at "Moderato" time, slower and I hope so with more details
in phrasing and microdinamics. But first I'll send other recordings.

> If anybody would notice it at all, just say you use an Albanian Chopin edition, or something like that

:) ....but when I was a boy I've heard someone played D natural.
Not terrible that harmony of G7...... :?

Bye,
Sandro "Sarrasani" Bisotti

P.S.

I played this mazurka when was a boy. My teachers and co-students and professors at
degree (when I played it): not a word about this Db.
In these years I've begun again to play it: none of my friends tell me a word.
Until this site, you and Pianolady, thank you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9637
Location: Netherlands
Sandro Bisotti wrote:
I played this mazurka when was a boy. My teachers and co-students and professors at
degree (when I played it): not a word about this Db.

Haha ! Who needs professors when you've got Piano Society :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
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Location: Netherlands
I listened to your Beethoven as well. I'm not an expert on Beethoven interpretation, and this is my least favourite of the sonatas, so I can't offer much comment on interpretation. Generally though, it seems rather ideosyncratic to me, in that you take great liberties with tempo, pedalling, phrasing, etc... I will not argue about it, as you are a strong-willed pianist who does everything for a good reason it seems. And I have great respect for your immensely assured and polished performances even when I do not agree with all details. There is a really strange echo/-reverb effect just before the end of the finale, and I took objection to some very long pedal stretches in the first movement, and some LH passages that sounded jazzy and un-Beethoven-ish. Apart from that, real good again.


You had better send me your bio and picture so that we can get you up on the site.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:43 pm 
[quote="techneut"]

Generally though, it seems rather ideosyncratic to me, in that you take great liberties with tempo, pedalling, phrasing, etc...

:) It's only "my way", as Frank Sinatra sings.
But 1) tempo. The first movement is a research of a cohesion, and it's non-linear, irregular
on the score. Continous and large changes of time on the score, the insertion of 2 recitativo, the raphsodic and so strange beginning of ricapitulation (where is the first theme in the ricapitulation, after the recitativos?) invite and (IMHO) force to an extreme variety of tempo.
Here I try to find the identity in the opposite trends (and tempo) of themes. And those misterious
recitativos.... Ah, and I love too much to dissolve the development in that strange ricapitulation,
without formal, abstract rigidity.
2) where Beethoven by his hand write the pedal notation : 4,6 bars of continous pedal on.
When (in rare, exemplary cases) Beethoven write the pedal notation he has a heavy hand....
3) The phrasing.... For me is natural. I don't like the quantizing-phrasing of many pianists;
I am not afraid of the irregolarity and asymmetry. It's a question of measure, but this doesn't mean
nothing: for one is less, for another is too much....


> And I have great respect for your immensely assured and polished performances even when I do not agree with all details.

Thank you for this (and for the not positive considerations too), but You are very kind.


> and some LH passages that sounded jazzy

If Chopin is Bill Evans, Beethoven is Thelonious Monk. Scarlatti was Bud Powell. :wink:
Near the end of exposition there is a descending melody (4 bichords in scale): RH and
after LH in time, and immediately after the same scales in syncopated rythm.
If one (and I always try to do so) will to display the melody ......
But it's not only here, I suppose.

> and un-Beethoven-ish. Apart from that, real good again.

A myth of Beethoven for everyone. I don't think my myth is more true than
others, only is the only myth I can try to respect, when I play.

> You had better send me your bio

O.K., and again thank you.
:evil: Today I've re-recorded the Mazurka op.24-4. With that damned Db at its place.......


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:52 pm 
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Location: Netherlands
These are all up !
Now all I need is your bio and photo. If you want to replace the Op.24 No.4, just email it to me directly.

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:35 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:27 pm
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Location: Sweden
Very well done and that goes for all of the recordings!

The Beethoven Sonata is played seriously as Beethoven's music in most cases is. But nevertheless, you play with fire and passion in some spots where it is needed. A difficult balance but you handle it very well and it is especially obvious in the famous last movement.

You play Chopin very well too and as already remarked, you take quite some liberty in use of dynamics, phrasing and rubato. Not in a bad way and nothing unusual or strange but rather more of everything.

Overall, I got a very convincing first impression of you as a pianist and it will be interesting to listen to future recordings of yours.

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