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 Post subject: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:51 pm 
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I've written another sonatina, on and off, over the past 6 months, and while it may not have the same small-scale ease of the previous sonatina, or the same harmonic language, it's slightly more ambitious in size, giving rise to more problems of form, continuity, and harmonic movement than I am used to (some of which might be rather apparent). Really hope you guys enjoy listening to it as much as I have composing it, however. (doing the final movement at the piano for once was greatly satisfying if a bit long-winded). Comments are welcome.

Some questions:

1. Should I repeat the A section for the first movement?
2. Would the final movement benefit from another contrasting section (e.g different from the main theme), or is it good as it is now?


Attachments:
Sonatina No. 2.pdf [946.09 KiB]
Downloaded 208 times
Sonatina No. 2 - III. Allegro comodo.mp3 [4.09 MiB]
Downloaded 227 times
Sonatina No. 2- II. Marche Funebre, Lugubre.mp3 [8.54 MiB]
Downloaded 211 times
Sonatina No. 2 - I. Allegretto Grazioso.mp3 [2.41 MiB]
Downloaded 222 times
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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:05 am 
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I like the first and third movements. The third more than the first -- it seems more purposeful and logically constructed, and you use the rondo-with-variations form in an interesting way that makes sense but allows for some surprises. I think composing at the piano works for you.

To respond to your questions, I don't think the first or third movements really need more material. They're in tasteful scale and very enjoyable. You might be able to get more mileage out of the first movement themes in terms of development if you wanted, but a straight repeat is probably unnecessary.

The first movement is not really in sonata form (even the compressed version used for classical sonatinas) but I assume you know that and chose the "sonatina" title anyway. You wouldn't be the first. This piece does remind me a bit of Clementi's high-energy sonatinas filtered through a mid-20th-century style, and some of the Clementi gestures like the emphatic chords at the close of the 1st movement were just really fun.

The second movement confuses me. It is marked Marche funebre but I hear neither the marche nor the funebre. At half note=40 it's not lugubre at all, it's almost a comic tempo, and the 3 against 4 rhythms detract a lot from any sort of march rhythm. Is the title meant to be ironic? Then, other than the cadences and occasional passages of imitation, the notes sound sort of randomly placed. I'm not one of those people who equates all dissonance with randomness -- I'm just not understanding why you chose these notes as opposed to some other notes. (Now I wholeheartedly admit that there could be some kind of a plan that escaped me. Maybe other commenters will respond differently.)


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:52 pm 
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Location: Carbondale, IL
Hi Jonathan,

I really enjoyed listening to your second Sonatina. The energy in Movement 1 is really awesome. :shock: The idiom is original, the modulations catchy, and the wild rhythms IMO a bit Kapustin-esque 8) It's waking me up after hearing the mostly lento music of Mompou in his 2nd book of Musica Callanda that Monica has posted! You play these superbly, I can't think of anything to criticise in the performance, and I'm trying to think of things... :twisted: Your new piano sounds very nice here. The string sound and acoustic setup is quite appealing to me.

I agree with Heather, I think a repeat of the A section isn't necessary.

I think a contrasting section in the Final Mvt. would be good. Starting at m. 9, I was expecting to hear a big minor section, so I was totally thrown off by the f # major return I thought I was going to hear f # minor and c # major. But as you have it now it's quirky, like Satie. I think you and I both like him :)

One suggestion about the score. The left hand of measure nine, you might see if your composition software can write 8vb lines, as it may be hard to read as it is written (what I learned was the rule is after 3 ledger lines, write 8vb).

The middle Mvt. I liked a lot with its curt bachian cadences and tricky quarter note burrowed division that I haven't really heard at all in modern music. In the beginning of the third intermezzo of Strueff's is one example I can think of off the top of my head.

Enjoyed these a lot, and think that they would be great to go up on the site.

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"I don't know what music is, but I know it when I hear it." - Alan Schuyler
Riley Tucker


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:45 pm 
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I like the 1st mvt primarily for its sheer rhythmic vitality. The modulations sound a bit recherche to me, there is little for the ear and mind to latch on to. Maybe this was your intention, in which case it's ok :)

The 2nd mvt is certainly an odd duck, why on earth is it called Marche Funebre ? Sounds more like an invention by Hindemith. Some intriguing writing here nonetheless, at times reminiscent of Kapustin. It could do with a slightly more jazzy and more overtly syncopated approach. I find the ending unsatisfactory. I'd given it a open ending on some nice "blue" dissonance.

I love the 3rd movement with its sunny diatonic theme. It has all the energy of the 1st mvt but is harmonically much more attractive. Again, the ending could be a bit stronger, it seems a bit perfunctory. This piece deserves a better and more spectacular ending.

Neither of the outer movements needs any additional material. Instead I would suggest pruning the middle part a little, it seems overly long compared to the outer mvts. Almost 10 minutes is quite long for a 3-part Sonatina anyway, I think.

Great performance although a bit monochrome. At times it sounds rather like a MIDI recording. What happened to good old rubato and dynamics ?

Great work nonetheless.

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:04 pm 
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@Heather: Glad you enjoyed the first and third movements! I can understand your confusion regarding the second movement, however, given the long-windedness (lack of cadence) of the middle section and the chromatic harmony shifts, but rest assured that the notes are not random (on the most part, just melodic intervals I found tasteful that add some sort of chromatic blurring). The lugubre indication was more of sentiment than tempo (e.g mournful, stately), and while the march rhythm isn't present, I felt that the square-cut harmonic rhythm and the use of limited motivic material (most of the figures in B can be found in the A section and the transition) had the same sort of stately severity. Maybe I could pass the movement as 'music portraying a funeral march' instead of being the march itself, like Debussy did. Perhaps I should just call it andante and call it a day.

As for Clementi in movement 1, he was certainly a guiding light along with Hadyn (in fact, the idea of putting in those ending chords you mentioned was practically irresistible!) It is more of a binary form fashioned on the Baroque gigue, but I suppose the barest essentials of a sonatina (e.g polarization of B section as well as a clear return to A) are somewhat present.

===

@Riley: Thanks a lot; I'm glad the first movement appealed to you so strongly, though I wouldn't say it's 'awesome'! It's always nice to play around with rhythms, especially in triple-time. However, these mp3s are MIDI realizations, with a bit of dynamics in them. Given the pieces' straightforward nature, I think the computer plays them fairly well, though I would get around to putting in more dynamics and rubato, as Chris mentioned. Also, 8vbs are fine, but a bit painful to utilize at times. Might get to the engraving stuff later though. The 'surprise' of m.9 was intentional as well (more Hadyn than Satie!), but I was thinking of putting a bigger minor episode after the third appearance of the main theme.

===

@Chris: Thanks for the suggestions. Thinking about it, I think you're right about the endings of 2 and 3; they could be slightly more convincing. I did mean the slow movement to be the 'heart' of the work, but after playing through the second movement a few times, I've been thinking that the lack of a stop to the middle section was a bit overindulgent. More rhythmic variation to articulate the section would be nice too, maybe, as you suggested (though I've never thought of it as jazzy!) Will get back to it soon, perhaps. Again, I'm glad you enjoyed listening to the work.


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:45 pm 
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Ah, so they were MIDI. I had not expected that seeing as you are a more than competent player. This rendition is not bad, but why not record them properly and add the human touch ?

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:23 am 
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I composed the 3rd movement on the piano, but I'll have to take time to learn the 1st and 2nd. Playing it a few times through, I think it would benefit much from trimming like you suggested. I'll post again when I get a successful recording...


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Hi Jonathan,

I really like your piece, so I had a try of it this morning. It was a wild rollercoaster ride, learning all of the accidentals, but in many ways I think it is not incredibly difficult just requiring memorization by line. I take it at a slower pace, it would take me quite a longer time to get it up to speed. Someday...

Some parts I leave out or rewrite. I hope you like the additions!

I apologize for poor audio. There is even a part in the middle where the audio inserts little blips... ARG.. I ought to buy a portable recorder. Anyways, I hope you like it despite its flaws :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kdk9bk8lff8c3 ... tucker.MP3

Cheers,

Riley

_________________
"I don't know what music is, but I know it when I hear it." - Alan Schuyler
Riley Tucker


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Hmm, thanks for the nice gesture and learning the notes for the first movement. Yeah, they aren't too hard to play, but the runs need some felicity and sprightliness to them for the piece to sound convincing. I think this recording sounds a bit too sleepy and drowsy to sound natural though, and your modifications were a bit too liberal (a bit too much in classical times). You didn't play the parts I liked most either. :( Good effort though.

EDIT: Is the link removed or something? >_> Also I'll catch up on pianosociety in the coming week; things are finally starting to let up.


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:59 am 
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Jonathan,

Quote:
Hmm, thanks for the nice gesture and learning the notes for the first movement. Yeah, they aren't too hard to play, but the runs need some felicity and sprightliness to them for the piece to sound convincing. I think this recording sounds a bit too sleepy and drowsy to sound natural though, and your modifications were a bit too liberal (a bit too much in classical times). You didn't play the parts I liked most either. Good effort though.

EDIT: Is the link removed or something? >_> Also I'll catch up on pianosociety in the coming week; things are finally starting to let up.


You're welcome and thanks for listening and your feedback. I think you are right, that this piece needs to be more "sprightly." If I may say so I think that is one of the coolest things about your piece, is its chromatic zest and vigor (perhaps only in the extent of speed). Yes, I think, my recording is lacking of speed, though I wonder which version you downloaded. I have sped it up just a few ticks and I think this version is much closer to the original. I'm not usually one to alter speed but I think in the interest of it not sounding sleepy, it may be acceptable, though I realize you have reservations with my additions. If you notice I play octave left hands m. 44-47 (3rd page) of course, 47 is the both the RH and LH. I am sorry I didn't play the other parts you like. I look forward to your recording, and here is the piece again sped up.

Attachment:
yeo-sonatina-2-1-tucker.MP3 [2.17 MiB]
Downloaded 159 times


Cheers!

_________________
"I don't know what music is, but I know it when I hear it." - Alan Schuyler
Riley Tucker


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Just finished recording my sonatina (finally). While there are some boo-boos here and there, I hope they are insightful and enjoyable to listen to. I did make some changes as well to the second and third piece. Comments welcome.

Also, I will be getting back to pianosociety soon, commenting and contributing and such. Sorry for the long hiatus and such.


Attachments:
Sonatina No. 2 - III. Allegro comodo.mp3 [4.8 MiB]
Downloaded 148 times
Sonatina No. 2- II. Quasi Andante, tempo rubato.mp3 [5.86 MiB]
Downloaded 128 times
Sonatina No. 2 - I. Allegretto Grazioso.mp3 [2.87 MiB]
Downloaded 166 times
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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:41 am 
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Jonathan,

I had a listen to your new recordings of your 2nd Sonatina. I think you do so much to these pieces, that the previously submitted files did (or should I say could) not.

your 1st mvt is not how I imagined you would play it, but the hemiola figure at m. 27 is a nice touch. The rit. at m. 80 is I think a great addition. The end is playful, in the moody character of the rest of the piece.

your 2nd mvt. has a lot different about it. I think the changes are for the best, the rubato really gives it soul. For criticism, I would have liked more of a ritardando at measure 104.

your 3rd mvt. sounds quirky with the staccato accents at the beginning, like the william tell overture :) You write that this is the other mvt. you modified. The blooper at m. 33 didn't bother me one bit, it actually seemed like minimalistic doubling of measures that many composers do like glass who just love repetition, haha. The end reminds me of Chopin's Op. 45 Prelude in c sharp minor. @ 3:57 in Kautsch's recording. Though this mvt. is in a major key the Tonic - P5 - M6 - (-M2) - (-M2) - P5 -M6 (and ascending so on) pattern is familiar. And familiar (perhaps more so because it's in the minor key) in the ending of your second mvt! :)

Nice job, enjoyed this a lot!

_________________
"I don't know what music is, but I know it when I hear it." - Alan Schuyler
Riley Tucker


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Thanks for the comments Riley. Yeah the 1st movement is a bit sleepy still, but I guess I am a bit overeliant on the pedal to join my notes. Glad you find the rits and rubato to be a nice touch in general; actually playing them makes certain things obvious somehow.

And mm, the thing at the end is really familiar and has been a resource for many (you might even use it one day!). You did touch upon a connecting element between the 2nd and 3rd movement though; it occurs a lot throughout both of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:17 pm 
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the first movement is interesting for its rhythmic propulsion, and for the harmonic instability.
It recalls Prokofiev and Bartok music. Perhaps you could further expand the central phase of the movement.
The second moviments recall the Hindemith's stile, is very rafined. the counterpoint is very appropiate for this stile.
The last moviments is more neoclassical, but recall also the Ravel music in some point.


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 Post subject: Re: Sonatina No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:35 pm 
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@andrea: I'm quite surprised about your comparing of the last movement to Ravel! However, thank you very much for your comments; maybe I can reuse material for the future.


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