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 Post subject: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:16 am 
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This may sound weird, but I have never played a Haydn sonata before. The one I submit here is one I heard on the radio a while ago and liked right away. It's only two movements that aren't too long (a big turn-on!). Another bonus is that it wasn't on our site yet.

I tried to follow all the markings but may have missed some. And the rhythm, with all those trills and turns was a little tricky, but I hope it all comes off okay. Also, I didn't take one of the repeats in the first movement.
Comments welcomed and appreciated! :)


Haydn - Sonata in G minor, Hob. XVI No. 44, I: Moderato

Haydn - Sonata in G minor, Hob. XVI No. 44, II: Allegretto

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:53 pm 
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You have the correct Hoboken XVI number (44) in the posting subject title and in the file name, but the wrong number (43) in the ID3 tag.

1st movement:
You phrase the opening notes as in my Martienssen edition, i.e. in the first complete bar of the piece, you detach the first 8th note from the next 3, which are slurred. Interestingly this is different in the two other editions on IMSLP (Köhler and Moscheles) which slur all four of those notes together. Your phrasing of this figure is consistent, with one exception, where you (presumably unintentionally) slip into doing it the other way; this is at the beginning of the development section (i.e. after the 1st repeated section).

I think you are misinterpreting an editorial suggestion which is marked all over the place after trills; it shows a pair of small-type 16th notes in parentheses. Nearly all of these you play as if giving too much importance to these two little notes, and you also nearly always disconnect them too much from the trill itself. Examples are 2, 4, 6, and 10 bars before the 1st time bar at the end of the 1st repeated section. I'm pretty sure the idea behind these editorial marks is merely to suggest that the second-last note of the trill should be the note below the main note instead of the note above it. If nothing were marked, I dare say you would probably intuitively play the lower note anyway, and the only purpose of the editorial marking is to guide those who would otherwise play the upper note. There should not be any discontinuity, and the trill should just flow naturally into what follows, much like, for example, the way you end the trill in the 4th complete bar of the next movement.

2nd movement:
The same criticism about ending trills where the bracketed little notes are printed applies wherever they occur in this movement. I'd like to single out one occurrence where you do it the way which to me feels right, and this is at about 2:08, the 20th complete bar of the first G major section.

A few bars further on, between the 24th and 25th bars of that section, I sense a slight hesitation before the bar in which the RH has the 12 semiquavers.

There is also a bit of a hesitation in the bar 4 back from the end. Compare this bar with each of the 4 previous bars. In all of these the first LH note comes after a 16th note rest after the RH plays its first note on the 1st beat, but in the flourish bar itself, the first LH note comes after only a 32nd note rest, so it should be played earlier than in the other bars, but you seem to play it actually a bit later.

There is a small read error: Between bars 9 and 10 (counting back from the end) the D in the RH is tied across the bar line, but you re-articulate it. An easy thing to miss when that tie spans a line break.

Apart from all that, this is a pretty fine rendition.
Don't apologise for omitting the 2nd repeat in the first movement, I think it's pretty conventional to omit these long repeats.


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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:31 am 
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Thank you for your careful review, Rainer. I don't think the two 'little notes' after the trills is a big deal. After all, it's not a turn and it goes by so quickly that you really can't do anything else there. Also, I've learned from fellow piano friends, that one can play ornaments practically any way one wants to in Haydn's music. One can even use pedal and rubato! I don't hear any hesitations that you mention, but I'm the first to admit that I have a lot to improve in my playing. Except, I just don't think there are as many flaws in this recording as what you mention. That's okay, I'm glad you took the time to listen. And you're absolutely correct regarding that tied note in the second movement. I totally missed that one!

Not only did I have the incorrect Hob number, I neglected to add the date, and also spelled Haydn wrong. :oops: I think I've got everything right now. Lesson to myself....don't process recordings, make tags, and upload to PS while watching historical drama on television and drinking wine. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:02 am 
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Hi Monica,

I had a listen to your recordings of these Haydn Sonatas. I think you play them well, and these require great skill to play, so its to your credit, though I haven't ever heard them before and can't really judge these pieces very well. Your trills sounded crisp and your phrasing, in the classical "mozartian" style as it were 8) .

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:29 pm 
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Hi Riley!

Although I've never played any of Haydn's other sonatas, this one is not too difficult. I guess some spots are tricky at this fast speed.
I never heard it before, either, but Marc Andre Hamelin has it on his new album and that's what I first listened to and used as my example. Except he played all the repeats....

I wonder if Mozart used Haydnian phrasing..? :P :)

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:33 am 
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Hi Monica

It look like Hamelin's version is 7'40'', indeed, he must play the repeats as yours is almost two minutes shorter! And the 2nd mvt he plays in 2 minutes but yours is easily twice as long. I hate it when pianists rush music, even if they can, (and admittedly it takes some skill) I imagine recording this was not at all an ardous task for him. But I notice that his CD was recorded back in March 2007? Now his label says he is releasing a Hadyn PCs CD next month.

Quote:
I wonder if Mozart used Haydnian phrasing..?


hehe. But of course! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:54 pm 
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What a coincidence, Monica! I have also never played a Haydn sonata before, and am also planning on offering one soon (#26). I'm so glad that you put this up because it will give me an opportunity for some study when I have time to download the score. And thanks to rainer for the comments - I'll keep them in mind when reading the score myself. Unfortunately, I'm way too close to recording to redo any of my ornaments if it turns out that I'm a sinner.

I'm not taking the 2nd repeat in #26, either. Throws it off from the sonata-allegro form which was to take shape a little later in Europe and which modern listeners understand.

My first listening impression is very favorable, and I enjoyed the piece and your rendition. I thought the 2nd movement came off as more "confident" than the first and really "sounded 18th century".

I'll try to get back with another more meaningful comment later. Thanks for the recording and for filling in another hole in PS's repertoire.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Hi Riley, I think you were looking at the wrong one. MAH's 1st movement is 8:29 and mine is 6:05 = about 2 1/2 minutes difference.
His 2nd movement is 4:00 and mine is 4:13 = a 13 seconds difference.

Thank you for listening, Stu! I look forward to hearing your Haydn! And don't worry about the ornaments. You don't have to conform to anybody's belief of how they should be played.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:46 pm 
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13 seconds that's a much different figure than x2 the length! That's bizarre. He must have released it?

I think I'm looking at the right one. Here is the page, I believe it says different:

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDA67554

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:31 am 
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Riley, I think you must be looking at Bb major Hob XVI No 41 in his volume 1.
The G minor Hob XVI No 44 is in his volume 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:30 am 
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Exactly! I thought I was losing my marbles for a second when I first looked at that album. Then I realized it's not volume #3. However, Riley, maybe you were confused because I messed up my tags earlier and accidentally named this no. 43 instead of 44. I corrected the tags and re-uploaded, but I see that the file on the 'new recordings' list still shows no. 43. Argh! :x I don't know why, so I've just re-uploaded it yet again.

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:56 am 
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Quote:
Exactly! I thought I was losing my marbles for a second when I first looked at that album. Then I realized it's not volume #3. However, Riley, maybe you were confused because I messed up my tags earlier and accidentally named this no. 43 instead of 44. I corrected the tags and re-uploaded, but I see that the file on the 'new recordings' list still shows no. 43. Argh! I don't know why, so I've just re-uploaded it yet again.


Yes, you and Rainer are right I was looking at the wrong one. They say looks can be decieving, well, so can tags! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:32 am 
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Monica,
Finally had time to follow this with the score. Very interesting, and very good, particularly for your first grappling with a major composer. (As you know, I'm attempting the same thing, and I know it's daunting.)

I thought rainer was right about the the descending trill, which usually happens on the penultimate note of a phrase (which then frequently ends on the tonic). I noticed the disconnect before the last turn immediately, and in the first movement, I found it disconcerting as a listener because it sounded like you were going to add some extra time to the measure.

However, the exact same figure sounds just fine in the second movement. Perhaps because it's played more confidently?. Or the different rhythm (dotted) in the containing phrase??

The other ornaments are fine, and pretty consistent as far as I could tell. Also, they "sounded 18th century", which is probably all that matters to an audience (me, anyway).

In my edition, the second movement has a "mezza voce" mark at the beginning, and I had to laugh because of that message stream that you once started about "mezza voce" and "sotto voce". I really wonder if that was Haydn's marking??? Late Baroque / Early Classical does not usually lend itself to "mezza voce", in my humble opinion, especially with the instruments they had then.

So, are you going to do more Haydn? I'm surprised how much fun it is, are you?

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 Post subject: Re: Haydn - Sonata in G minor Hob. XVI No. 44
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:22 pm 
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Thanks for double-checking, Stu. I still don't quite follow what you and Rainer mean. I think my fingers and ears are just used to the way I play this here. I'm going to leave it alone now.

I did like learning this piece; I felt that I needed something VERY different from all the Mompou (and other Spanish music) I've been working on, and Haydn fit the bill nicely! I thought at first that one had to be very careful about every little thing, like in Mozart. But I learned that you can take a bit more liberties with Haydn. I don't know why, though, since both composers are from the same time and were personal friends and all that. I guess I just don't know much about Haydn except for the few pieces I've played. I too was surprised to see that 'mezza voce' there. I also doubt that it is Haydn's own marking.

Yes, this music was fun to learn but I'm still not crazy about sonatas. I don't intend to play any more Haydn-- at least in the near future. I've moved on...back to some favorites: Granados, Albeniz (I know....more Spanish...I can't stop! :roll: :) ), and a new Samuel Barber piece. Also a couple Chopin and a little Grieg.

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