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 Post subject: Re: Ismagilov prelude No 5
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:23 pm 
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It seems to be up and working. Funny thing: both preludes Nos. 5 and 15 (note the "5") are in "simliar" keys (D major and D flat major), last the same time (1'04") and are the same size (1,5 Mb). Add to that that when I submitted No. 5 the first time I actually sent no 15 again by mistake! How far can coincidences go!

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 Post subject: Re: Ismagilov prelude No 5
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:18 am 
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richard66 wrote:
Funny thing: both preludes Nos. 5 and 15 (note the "5") are in "simliar" keys (D major and D flat major), last the same time (1'04") and are the same size (1,5 Mb). Add to that that when I submitted No. 5 the first time I actually sent no 15 again by mistake! How far can coincidences go!
Well, it may be coincidence that two of your recordings last the same time (although your previous recording of No 15 lasted longer), but file size will of necessity be strongly correlated to duration, so that doesn't count as part of the "coincidence".

As for the prelude numbers 5 and 15 (which both end in the digit 5) "happening" to correspond to keys which are both major and both have D in their name (5 as natural and 15 as flat), this isn't really coincidence either, it is a consequence of a simple mathematical fact combined with the way Ismagilov has arranged his prelude numbering in relation to their keys.

Like in Bach's WTC, Ismagilov's 24 preludes consist of one in each key. No 1 is in C major, No 2 in C minor, No 3 in G major, etc. All the odd numbers are major and all the even numbers are minor (same as in WTC). But the way Ismagilov arranges his odd (major) numbers through the keys differs from WTC: Bach's numbers 1,3,5,7,etc correspond to C, C#, D,Eb,etc, ascending chromatically, whereas Ismagilov's ascend in "circle of fifths" order of, i.e. his 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 correspond to C,G,D,A,E,B,F# (I'm not sure about 13, it might be Gb instead of F#), and then they continue with 15,17,19,21,23 corresponding to Db,Ab,Eb,Bb,F.

Therefore you will find that not only do the D and Db preludes have numbers 5 and 15, but also that
A and Ab have 7 and 17,
E and Eb have 9 and 19,
B and Bb have 11 and 21, and finally either
F# and F have 13 and 23, or else
G and Gb have 3 and 13.

And why is this? It's because any two keys that are a semitone apart (like D and Db) are 7 steps apart in the circle of fifths and so their number of sharps differs by 7 (from D with 2 sharps to get to Db we must subtract 7 sharps to end up with -5 sharps which is the same as 5 flats), and since the prelude numbering goes up or down in steps of two (to skip the minor keys), it means we have to subtract 7 twice (or subtract 14) from the prelude number (so with the D major prelude being number 5, the Db major prelude must be number 5-14 or number -9), and then if necessary we need to add 24 to get it into the range 1 to 24. In short, we either subtract 14 or add 10, whichever gets us a result in the range 1 to 24. And of course when you add 10 to any number, its least significant digit does not change. :idea:


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 Post subject: Re: Ismagilov prelude No 5
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:12 am 
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rainer wrote:
Well, it may be coincidence that two of your recordings last the same time (although your previous recording of No 15 lasted longer), but file size will of necessity be strongly correlated to duration, so that doesn't count as part of the "coincidence".

As for the prelude numbers 5 and 15 (which both end in the digit 5) "happening" to correspond to keys which are both major and both have D in their name (5 as natural and 15 as flat), this isn't really coincidence either, it is a consequence of a simple mathematical fact combined with the way Ismagilov has arranged his prelude numbering in relation to their keys.

Like in Bach's WTC, Ismagilov's 24 preludes consist of one in each key. No 1 is in C major, No 2 in C minor, No 3 in G major, etc. All the odd numbers are major and all the even numbers are minor (same as in WTC). But the way Ismagilov arranges his odd (major) numbers through the keys differs from WTC: Bach's numbers 1,3,5,7,etc correspond to C, C#, D,Eb,etc, ascending chromatically, whereas Ismagilov's ascend in "circle of fifths" order of, i.e. his 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 correspond to C,G,D,A,E,B,F# (I'm not sure about 13, it might be Gb instead of F#), and then they continue with 15,17,19,21,23 corresponding to Db,Ab,Eb,Bb,F.

Therefore you will find that not only do the D and Db preludes have numbers 5 and 15, but also that
A and Ab have 7 and 17,
E and Eb have 9 and 19,
B and Bb have 11 and 21, and finally either
F# and F have 13 and 23, or else
G and Gb have 3 and 13.

And why is this? It's because any two keys that are a semitone apart (like D and Db) are 7 steps apart in the circle of fifths and so their number of sharps differs by 7 (from D with 2 sharps to get to Db we must subtract 7 sharps to end up with -5 sharps which is the same as 5 flats), and since the prelude numbering goes up or down in steps of two (to skip the minor keys), it means we have to subtract 7 twice (or subtract 14) from the prelude number (so with the D major prelude being number 5, the Db major prelude must be number 5-14 or number -9), and then if necessary we need to add 24 to get it into the range 1 to 24. In short, we either subtract 14 or add 10, whichever gets us a result in the range 1 to 24. And of course when you add 10 to any number, its least significant digit does not change. :idea:


Yeah - what he said! :P ( I was going to say the same thing.... :lol: )

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 Post subject: Re: Ismagilov prelude No 5
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Posts: 1040
pianolady wrote:
rainer wrote:
Well, it may be coincidence that two of your recordings last the same time (although your previous recording of No 15 lasted longer), but file size will of necessity be strongly correlated to duration, so that doesn't count as part of the "coincidence".

As for the prelude numbers 5 and 15 (which both end in the digit 5) "happening" to correspond to keys which are both major and both have D in their name (5 as natural and 15 as flat), this isn't really coincidence either, it is a consequence of a simple mathematical fact combined with the way Ismagilov has arranged his prelude numbering in relation to their keys.

Like in Bach's WTC, Ismagilov's 24 preludes consist of one in each key. No 1 is in C major, No 2 in C minor, No 3 in G major, etc. All the odd numbers are major and all the even numbers are minor (same as in WTC). But the way Ismagilov arranges his odd (major) numbers through the keys differs from WTC: Bach's numbers 1,3,5,7,etc correspond to C, C#, D,Eb,etc, ascending chromatically, whereas Ismagilov's ascend in "circle of fifths" order of, i.e. his 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 correspond to C,G,D,A,E,B,F# (I'm not sure about 13, it might be Gb instead of F#), and then they continue with 15,17,19,21,23 corresponding to Db,Ab,Eb,Bb,F.

Therefore you will find that not only do the D and Db preludes have numbers 5 and 15, but also that
A and Ab have 7 and 17,
E and Eb have 9 and 19,
B and Bb have 11 and 21, and finally either
F# and F have 13 and 23, or else
G and Gb have 3 and 13.

And why is this? It's because any two keys that are a semitone apart (like D and Db) are 7 steps apart in the circle of fifths and so their number of sharps differs by 7 (from D with 2 sharps to get to Db we must subtract 7 sharps to end up with -5 sharps which is the same as 5 flats), and since the prelude numbering goes up or down in steps of two (to skip the minor keys), it means we have to subtract 7 twice (or subtract 14) from the prelude number (so with the D major prelude being number 5, the Db major prelude must be number 5-14 or number -9), and then if necessary we need to add 24 to get it into the range 1 to 24. In short, we either subtract 14 or add 10, whichever gets us a result in the range 1 to 24. And of course when you add 10 to any number, its least significant digit does not change. :idea:


Yeah - what he said! :P ( I was going to say the same thing.... :lol: )


Ah, very well, but the real coincidence is that I recorded and posted Nos 15 and 5 in sequence. Since the score is in Roman nuimbers, I was maybe not even aware the latter was No 5 until I actually had to name the file! :?

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"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
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 Post subject: Re: Ismagilov prelude No 5
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:51 pm 
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richard66 wrote:
Since the score is in Roman numbers, I was maybe not even aware the latter was No 5 until I actually had to name the file! :?
The fact that the Roman numbers both end in V should have set your "coincidence alarm" bells ringing. Isn't it a coincidence that No 5 sounds like bells? 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Ismagilov prelude No 5
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:56 pm 
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rainer wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Since the score is in Roman numbers, I was maybe not even aware the latter was No 5 until I actually had to name the file! :?
The fact that the Roman numbers both end in V should have set your "coincidence alarm" bells ringing. Isn't it a coincidence that No 5 sounds like bells? 8)


:P

Let me check No. XXV... That is, 25!

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"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
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 Post subject: Re: Ismagilov prelude No 5
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:32 pm 
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It's indeed a more appealing piece than the previous two. It makes me wonder though if Ismagilov can do more than short pieces where one idea is presented and being turned over once or twice.

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 Post subject: Re: Ismagilov prelude No 5
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:53 pm 
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I agree with you there, Chris: of the three, it is the better one. He is not yet 30, or, if he is, he has only turned that age. He has time, though some people are finished by that age, some only start 20 years later. Think of Janacek. If I were playing pieces of his written in his 20s and you were commenting on them, you probably would have said the same. He has written a cello concerto, which you can find on YouTube.

You mentioned Lera Auerbach. I signed up for her site and have listened to some things of hers. The preludes seem technically demanding, but then she is the better pianist, though not particularly bleak, as you say. I find that her works in the major are just as dramatic as the ones in the minor and I detect in her the influence of Bach, even if she uses clusters.

I also tried her ballet The Little Mermaid. What utter nonsense these modern stage directors and choreographers think uo! You take a fairy-tale and turn it into an autobiography unfit for the main public of the story.

How Russian is she, thouigh, after all this time in the States?

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Richard Willmer
"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville


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 Post subject: Re: Ismagilov prelude No 5
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Location: Brazil
hi, Richard!

nice music!

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