Piano Society
Free Classical Keyboard Recordings
It is currently Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:44 am

All times are UTC - 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 92
Location: Atlanta, GA
Oh my dear Mr. Joseph. Thank you for your list, which I'll be sure to review tomorrow after a good night's sleep. And sense you offered, while evading my question altogether, I would be VERY interested in commenting on several of your works. Might I ask how does someone go about adding comments to already-posted pieces?

I have just listened back to your "interpretation" of Prelude 15, while we're on that subject and again since you asked.

Given your performance of this Prelude, I can actually understand why you have such a different stylistic opinion. Your approach is very different from mine to say the least.

I'll provide more detail when I post my critique of your version, which as I've said before is good overall and impressive as part of the complete set. But here are quick problems/opinions I'm typing as I listen: (1) Broading beginning section with only a few hints of a delicate touch anywhere (is this Bach or Chopin??), added "rolling embelishments" not in the score, LH much too heavy almost ignoring obvious phrasing points (2) the dramatic and unsettling irregular tempo changes within the middle section (you may want to check out that metronome as well), more "rolling embelishments", some odd hesitations, not carrying through dynamics to the end of the phrases (ff in 40 stays ff for the full three measures) (3) very disappointed in the chosen "phrasing" between bars 60 - 75 approx. My favorite recordings of this Prelude sing a tragic song after the "storm" of the middle section. I can't find any precedence in my audio collections or in my score for your erratic tempo and dynamic swings which don't seem to have much logic. (4) I felt no emotional connection to the last section after bar 76. It sounded like a literal re-hash of the opening melody, when I feel it should be MUCH more delicate and ethereal.

On to the ridiculous...I found all of your ramblings about me being "passive-aggressive" and having "delusional logic" quite funny. :lol: Is that what they teach you at "technical editor" school, or is this the great insight you pick up being such an accomplished, famous pianist?

What sophomoric twaddle. Please go learn something, anything, on these topics and then come back and we can talk. While you're doing your research, I'd recommend sneaking a peek at "Freudian Projection".

_________________
Matthew Wyman
And today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:32 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9550
Location: Netherlands
mwyman1 wrote:
I was just being honest about how I felt about your post. No big deal my friend. But I did feel it was narcissistic. That doesn't mean I think you're a narcicist, just a comment about how I perceived your comments as dismissive and presumptive (concluding my version is so unlikely to be worthy that it's not even worth listening to). As an Admin of this site, you saying something is "overplayed" as a reason not to even give it a listen is a bit offensive. I didn't see that criteria in the instructions. I apologize if I misunderstood.

I suppose I have no legal ground for not particularly desiring to listen to and evaluate the umpteenth submission of the raindrop and similar much-played pieces. As an admin, this is probably my job and duty even when I dislike a piece. I thought I'd get away with evaluating just one piece and rely on other members' feedback as I often do.

mwyman1 wrote:
Listening to music is time consuming, and you certainly don't have to waste your time on my submission. You've got too many recordings of 'Raindrop' - got it. The value of this site to me, which I feel is considerable, is the feedback - NOT the posting.

That much is true. The Audition Room is rather too centered towards submitting recordings for the site, and as such we sometimes give dismissive feedback, when something is not up to standard. We have more or less decided to
introduce another forum for work in progress, but not taken the steps yet. In such a forum anybody could fish for
feedback never mind what is being played and how. Mind you I'd certainly not feel obliged to listen to each and everything posted there. This would be in analogy with the audition room forum at Piano Street where anything goes and people either comment or they don't. Many things are silently ignored. There are no participating moderators there. Some submissions are top-notch and some are absolute crap. Once we have such a new forum,
a rule for Audition Room would be that anything not up to standard would be relocated to the new forum without further ado. This little 'incident' proves again that we badly need such a construct.

mwyman1 wrote:
Yes, fair enough I probably did overreact. I've read a lot of postings here lately, and I think for some reason some of the responses by this particular admin (whom I also very much respect and have listened to a lot of his music here) have rubbed me the wrong way.

It rather sounds like you had some bone to pick with me even before you joined up. You certainly wasted no time there ! No problem though - we can take some bashing, and dish some out in return. It doesn't have to make us enemies, unless you want it so.

In light of the other members' feedback on your Raindrop and Beethoven, there does not seem much point now in me going over the same ground again. Nor would there be a point in you rightly or wrongly arguing that I should do so.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:18 pm
Posts: 1040
Rachfan wrote:
Hi,

Although Richard had mistaken the "Raindrop" Prelude for a nocturne, it gave me pause for a thought. The Prelude No. 15 is the longest of the preludes. It's in A-B-A form, and A and A1 are very lyrical and tranquil. And although Part B has some bombast (the thunderstorm), there are some nocturnes that likewise have a dramatic change in the middle part. I have always thought of it as a depiction of a rainy day, but it could as easily be a rainy night. So... had Chopin slapped a nocturne title on this piece, he would have easily gotten away with it! :lol:

David


Even though I have listened (unwillingly) to the whole 24 together, I suppose my ears shut out after the 6th (or 7th or 5th prelude - I lose count) and I actually never even heard (consciuosly, that is) this prelude until last year, when a Russian student where I work gave a recital and this piece she played. And that is not all: she had come earlier to my house to look for scores (she had none with her) and I supplied her with the Chopin album of preludes and she was playing that prelude from that very edition.

I suppose I should be embarassed by all this but, it not being the fisrt time I do not know some of the things everyone takes for granted (I look years of conscious effort to manage to hear Rachmaninoff's famous Prelude!) I find it funny.

And yes, it starts just like as soupily as any of the soupier nocturnes, hence my mistake. I mean the prelude, not the performance.

_________________
Richard Willmer
"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville


Last edited by richard66 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:18 pm
Posts: 1040
techneut wrote:
The Audition Room is rather too centered towards submitting recordings for the site, and as such we sometimes give dismissive feedback, when something is not up to standard. We have more or less decided to introduce another forum for work in progress, but not taken the steps yet. In such a forum anybody could fish for feedback never mind what is being played and how. (...) This would be in analogy with the audition room forum at Piano Street where anything goes and people either comment or they don't. (...) Once we have such a new forum, a rule for Audition Room would be that anything not up to standard would be relocated to the new forum without further ado. This little 'incident' proves again that we badly need such a construct.

Is this a good idea or will all this vetting simply mean no one will submit? Already submissions are low. Doing this will make them go down even more. What you need to do is to restrict access in a way some sites do, to avoid people registering and immediately submitting recordings. Maybe you would need to make posting recordings in the audition room only available to members of the main site, with a different "room" for people who submit first recordings with a view of becoming members. Why compete with Piano Street? What makes PS so different and interesting is that the best recordings are moved to a permanent archive, where the pianist is clearly identified while those on Piano street simply drift away and we have no way of knowing who hides behind such names as Crazycat99 or Moonfaser.

_________________
Richard Willmer
"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:33 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8497
We are not trying to 'compete' with anybody. No other site has as vast a collection of classical piano music as we have! We're just hoping that by having another room, one that is less 'formal', we will in fact attract more people to join the forums.

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:41 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9550
Location: Netherlands
We've discussed this and it is definitely a good idea. Our impression is that the high standards in Audition Room have scared people from submitting and even driven people away. A forum without any pre-requisites would invite more people to post and get constructive feedback without fear
of the dreaded admins slapping their wrists. It just might have avoided an awkward situation like we seem to have in this case.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:32 pm
Posts: 496
Location: Connecticut, USA
Quote:
while evading my question altogether


How so? You asked me to back up my claims and I did so. I guess only certain types of feedback are acceptable to you.

Quote:
I can actually understand why you have such a different stylistic opinion.


Who said anything about style? I merely pointed out more cut-and-dried things that were clearly wrong in an attempt to illustrate why it was unpresentable for the site.

Quote:
I would be VERY interested in commenting on several of your works.


Sure, I knew you would be. It was clear to me from your nonsensical, defensive reply to Chris regarding "overplayed" that you're the type of person who's more interested in exacting petty revenge than in looking at himself realistically and learning something. Why not start a Web site or blog? For the opening page, you could put up a big glowing picture of yourself and then a picture of me next to it with a big X through it and an evil moustache photoshopped in. Then you could talk about how much more musical the playing of these pieces is by you and your other favorite performers. Option 2 would of course be to continue your rant against my playing right here. You've only got 23 left :P

_________________
Movie Blog: http://www.criticsloft.com
Classical Music Web Site: http://www.critics-ear.com
Youtube Piano Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/Chopin849?feature=mhee


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:28 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
jlr43 wrote:
...that the piece [Beethoven Tempest 3rd mov]sounds too difficult for them (admittedly only my opinion)
Nope, that was mine too.

_________________
Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:18 pm
Posts: 1040
techneut wrote:
We've discussed this and it is definitely a good idea. Our impression is that the high standards in Audition Room have scared people from submitting and even driven people away. A forum without any pre-requisites would invite more people to post and get constructive feedback without fear
of the dreaded admins slapping their wrists. It just might have avoided an awkward situation like we seem to have in this case.

We all want praise for our efforts, but, alas! no amount of praise in the world will make a recording better. That goes for all of us, including me. :cry:

_________________
Richard Willmer
"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:22 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9550
Location: Netherlands
richard66 wrote:
We all want praise for our efforts, but, alas! no amount of praise in the world will make a recording better. That goes for all of us, including me. :cry:

Tooting right ! Only withering criticism will do :D
Some praise is needed for motivation though. Something not always sufficiently recognized especially by zealous admins.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:30 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9550
Location: Netherlands
Joe and Matthew,
I can't make up my mind which one of you is throwing the biggest tantrum about nothing. Maybe you guys are made for each other :D
I must admit I secretly enjoy seeing a good old shouting match... just as I like to watch a cheap and stupid B movie now and then... and it makes the forum sort of interesting in dire times.... but really, this is starting to get a little too personal now. Why not back down and admit you can't always get an argument to swing your way.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:32 pm
Posts: 496
Location: Connecticut, USA
Well I certainly do apologize for my cheap and stupid feedback. And the same goes for my sophomoric twaddle :mrgreen:

_________________
Movie Blog: http://www.criticsloft.com
Classical Music Web Site: http://www.critics-ear.com
Youtube Piano Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/Chopin849?feature=mhee


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 92
Location: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
From techneut: The Audition Room is rather too centered towards submitting recordings for the site, and as such we sometimes give dismissive feedback, when something is not up to standard. We have more or less decided to introduce another forum for work in progress, but not taken the steps yet. In such a forum anybody could fish for feedback never mind what is being played and how.

This clarification helps a lot actually, and I really like that idea. For me, I knew I needed to refine my pieces and was looking for some feedback. (I'm very happy with the comprehensive feedback, by the way!) I really don't want you guys to become too much like the other site, however, which too often provides little true value to the musician IMO.
Quote:
Our impression is that the high standards in Audition Room have scared people from submitting and even driven people away. A forum without any pre-requisites would invite more people to post and get constructive feedback without fear of the dreaded admins slapping their wrists. It just might have avoided an awkward situation like we seem to have in this case.

Please don't give up on me yet - I'm still here! :D I've received a lot of positive feedback as well as specific things to work on, and am actually quite encouraged when I compare the feedback given to many other posters you've had. (I even had a few votes to post these early versions 8) ) And who knows, I may actually improve with a little time and practice!

I have no complaints with the admins' feedback on pieces reviewed, which were all very helpful with the proper mix of specifics and encouragement. Wishful thinking perhaps, but I do wish there was a way to discourage the non-constructive, personally offensive postings. I certainly made a rookie mistake and played my part, but I can't help but wonder if this has something to do with your retention/membership dropoff you've recently experienced. :?:

As a newbie here, it was very demoralizing to be attacked by one of your most prolific artists. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for tough love and understand never to underestimate the power of ones' delusions of their own skills (see American Idol). :shock: However according to the majority of feedback I received on this site, my work has potential and its problems are fixable. Knowing so little about me (or other more experienced folks who may be in my position), shouldn't I deserve the benefit of the doubt with regards to my ability to improve? Is it really the best policy to hastily decide (and point out to me) that I'm in way over my head?

Another angle. Have you ever performed a piece that you used to know well but haven't played in years, and had short notice to prepare? The piece is still somewhat in your fingers, so you may produce a 'passable' performance at least to the untrained ears. But a few notes may be missed here or there certainly, and hesitation can also be introduced as you are not fully prepared. However, with relatively little focused, dedicated practice you can improve very rapidly. A little metronome work in these situations does wonders! How do you know that's not the case for me with my Beethoven, or any other piece for example? I might surprise you, after all. Either way, I think in these situations it's poisonous and premature to disparage the new person - especially if you're a well-respected artist on the site.

So I know I can block this person's messages, but I wonder if there is something more the site (or admins) could do to educate and/or encourage its artists to avoid attacking newcomers?

Anyway, I hope I have not offended anyone and apologize for my part in this. I also hope that I will be given the opportunity to re-post these performances, as well as many others I'm [slowly] working on.

_________________
Matthew Wyman
And today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 92
Location: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
We all want praise for our efforts, but, alas! no amount of praise in the world will make a recording better. That goes for all of us, including me.
Well said. Ditto for me.

_________________
Matthew Wyman
And today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he, Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see. - Dr. Suess


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin Prelude and Nocturne + Beethoven Sonata Movement
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:04 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9550
Location: Netherlands
Matthew, I don't understand how you feel personally attacked. You got some candid feedback, maybe not what you wanted to hear most, but that's life. Deal with it and turn it into your advantage. In any online community, there's bound to be one or two fierce creatures that will pound on you if you step in with an attitude. It's probably best to try and get to know people first before starting to vent your pet peeves and judge people. That some conversations became testy is entirely your own doing. Not that I want to take sides in the dispute - I try to, and usually can, see both sides of an argument. If someone says you're not up to the Beethoven piece, I'd assume there may be some truth in that and would work on it harder, rather than getting all wound up and indignant about it. Maybe you are up to it and just haven't practiced nearly enough. Dunno, I have not listened to it. Maybe I should, but then don't get hot under the collar if you get the same kind of feedback. As I like saying, if you can't stand the heat then do get out of the kitchen. Or, better still, get used to it.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group