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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:55 pm 
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guybacos wrote:
Please, I don't want to start a fight here. I think the best thing for me to do is simply to withdraw my post of the Études.

We'll have no fight here.

Maybe you should not post them in the Audition Room (which is for submissions for the site) but in another section, with a clear explanation about what the
purpose of these is (demo tracks for Vienna Symphonic Library) and how they were created. Not mentioning these things doesn't help, because we will find out anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:05 pm 
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techneut wrote:
guybacos wrote:
Please, I don't want to start a fight here. I think the best thing for me to do is simply to withdraw my post of the Études.

We'll have no fight here.

Maybe you should not post them in the Audition Room (which is for submissions for the site) but in another section, with a clear explanation about what the
purpose of these is (demo tracks for Vienna Symphonic Library) and how they were created. Not mentioning these things doesn't help, because we will find out anyway.


Yes, we have secret spies everywhere! :)

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my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:09 pm 
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Last edited by guybacos on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:19 pm 
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That's the thing....Your subject heading is Chopin's 24 Etudes My interpretation. Yes, we very quickly figured out how these recordings were produced, and my contention is with your word 'interpretation'. Maybe your mind came up with how you wanted to interpret the music, but you used your computer to generate that interpretation, not your own fingers. That's why I think it is cheating. I hope that makes sense....

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"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Last edited by guybacos on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:57 pm 
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I'm sorry, Guy, but I just can't help it; the more I think about this issue, the madder I get!
It's not fair for someone to call themselves a pianist and upload a bunch of technology-produced music onto the Internet where some people may not realize that the music is artificial and think that the player actually played ALL of the pieces in a particular set. You are a fine composer, but the only way I will ever concede that you are also a fine pianist is to see videos of you playing ALL these etudes.

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"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Agreed with all that.

Though really, this is not about whether Guy is a fine pianist or not.

It's about whether we want (or appreciate) digitally manipulated music on this site. We don't, and anybody who digs a bit in the archives should soon enough know that. When recordings are manipulated on a note-by-note basis, it does not even matter much anymore whether there were fingers on keys involved.
It's just not our idea of making music. Maybe we should be stronger in stating this in the documentation such as we have.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:15 pm 
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Last edited by guybacos on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:29 am 
Wow! What a friendly place! I thought most of you lot died out with the dinosaurs. What a shame you didn't, because history is littered, nay, infected by feeble-minded clowns like yourselves. And history invariably removes them from distinction.

So, Guy told me about his wonderful DIGITAL renditions of the Chopin works: can I say works, or do I have to have a certain amount of music degrees to even talk about "works" ? Presumably you've all got DVD players, and are communicating on this forum by purely digital means, right? My God the hypocrisy of your tawdry, elitist little forum smells bad from where I'm typing ( in a virtual bunker, somewhere off the Death Star, in a galaxy far,far away ).

So, here in the unspeakable and unacceptable nether regions of the e-world, can I immediately say that Mr. Bacos, in no way, shape or form, encouraged me to join in this pathetic, inconsequential community of nobodies, who like to think they are somebodies. Never of heard of any of you, actually. Ummm pianolady: you wouldn't be related to Elton John would you? Your appraisal about interpretation makes you, I would guess, about 220 years old, am I right? If you know your history, which you clearly don't ( or you are foolishly choosing to ignore it to promote your dumb argument ) you will realise that the pianoforte,when it first came on the scene was laughed at and was shunned by the equivalent to the cobweb-encrusted fools that are mouldering in this daft little internet backwater. I could explain, with great precision, why you are so hilariously WRONG in your appraisal of what constitutes a real performance, but it would obviously go right over you tiny head. Are you sure you're not related to Elton John?

And "techneut": wow, what kind of musical term is that? Are you a DJ or something? MC Techneut. Sounds really sick, I think is the oxymoronic term for it. You weren't not too sharp to see your cheap insult about wetsuits being roundly turned on its metaphorical head and bite you on the posterior, were we? Mr. Synergy makes some coherent and clever points about the use of technology as a communication tool , IN THE 21st CENTURY, and you come back with a childish jibe about his pseudonym.See, life in the cyberworld of forums and e-communication is full of nasty, vicious reptiles, like ME! If you try to get smart, I'll bite you so hard, you'll have to go to the nearest e-clinic, and you'll not be DJ-ing for while,lol! See: Lol: Laughs Out Loud.... Geddit?! It's an internet acronym.... forgeddit.

While we're at it, MC Techneut said:"I am a programmer and IT guy myself, and I understand that new technology is attractive to many people. But if this is the future of piano playing, I feel sad. It is like watching these movies where you don't know if anything you see is real or not, or looking at airbrushed models with skins like the finest quality paper. I may be getting old but all this technology applied to art disgusts me. I'll have the warts, moles and scars any time......" sic Do you actually realise that you have the mind of a small pea, coming up with utter nonsense like that? You call yourself an " IT guy" ( what's that: Interesting Italian? ), yet eschew technology as a tool for expressing art. Actually you, and your anachronistic cronies, who delude themselves in thinking that they know better (doing a bad job thus far,dude ), are on the verge of a merciful extinction. No-one will know anything about you in a couple of weeks, let alone a couple of decades, if you're not already languishing in oblivion. And, oh, MC Techneut, don't get all clever and quasi- philosophical on us, talking about watching movies where you ( should be "one" BAD English, MC ) don't know what is real or not. Ummm, sorry to wake you up, but NONE OF IT IS REAL ! IT'S A MOVIE! That's what movies are: unreality, expressing reality. You see, Eisenstein said.....ah forget it. You wouldn't understand. So, when you listen you a RECORDING of a piano performance by Rubenstein ( guess you don't ), that must be so hard for you to take, right? 'Cos it's not real!!!! Get over the shock, man! Life isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Anyway, I digress. I have absolutely no agenda, here, expect to exterminate all musical idiots, and this place is infested with them, like nasty 'roaches. Mr. Bacos straddles two worlds with admirable virtuosity. One, as a very fine pianist; the other, in my view, as an even finer composer, who shows the utmost integrity and passion for his craft, be it the interpreting of others' music, or the rendering of his own. You lot, on the other hand, are a bunch of ossified, myopic snobs, who have failed miserably to show even some historical knowledge of the field of expertise you claim to be ,er, expert in. Viz: regarding the place of progressive use of technology and its role in the arts.

So, fellow intelligentsia, bring it on: I will slay you all, one by one. I know I will be banned from your silly little community, so I have one parting thing to say: BOO!


Last edited by michaelv on Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:51 am 
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guy wrote:
So are you saying because not 100% of the musicality came directly from my finger, it changes everything?

It does for me.

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:54 am 
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Last edited by synergy543 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:54 am 
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Last edited by guybacos on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:33 am 
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Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
guybacos wrote:
musical-md wrote:
guy wrote:
So are you saying because not 100% of the musicality came directly from my finger, it changes everything?

It does for me.


I'm quite comfortable with that because from what I see so far, all the negative things came from people who did not digest being deceived or the fact that it's possibly manipulated and they see this as cheating etc... but just on the basis of the listening, the experience is very successful and for me that's what counts. I can't control how different groups feel about the way this was done.

But Guy, you are totally unknown personally (as I am) to PS and wish to present yourself as a fabulously accomplished pianist. Maybe you are, I just don't know this. I would love for this to be all cleared up with some video of you performing. Then we could get on to more praise and admiration. I must say, however, that the sudden presence on PS of two new people today, who are taking up your banner without hesitation (seeing that the Administrators are bothered by something) is highly suspicious to me.

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:33 am 
No problem ,Greg, thank you. If there's one thing worse than bullies, it's ill-informed bullies. I don't tolerate that. So, unless otherwise required, I'm outta here, and uber-talented people such as Mr. Bacos would be well-advised to follow.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:51 am 
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Guy, I have heard your samples on the VSL site years ago. As a virtual instrument for MIDI sources, the Vienna Imperial in these set of Etudes is the best piano sample I've heard in the current arsenal of electronic "Classical Pianos." I tend to be fussy to the color of sound, especially when it comes to tonality and timbre. To nit pick, the sound is a tad constrained dynamically; slightly dry, and with a boomy EQ bias. However, VSL's sound chain of mics, preamps, consoles, A/D, and the mastering of final sound, are world class compared with the competition. Overall, would I buy it as a piano virtual instrument (VI)? Yes, as it's the best sounding electronic piano for my taste to date compared to Ivory, Garratan Steinway, PianoTeq, etc.

I regret not taking the opportunity to study the organ, so the closest I'll be able to come to realistically playing the organ is in a virtual instrument capacity in my music studio. As a result, I've added to my collection of VI, the Vienna Sound Library Konzerthaus Organ, a great 24-bit sampled library of the great Rieger Organ in Vienna. I've been to St. Stephen's Cathedral, and when I heard a few samples on the site, and I was hooked. Even though the timbre has a digital edge when many stops are open, a fine analog tube preamp in the signal chain can warm the glassy highs rendering a very close approximation to the real organ. Someday when I have the time, I hope to do more composing and scoring in the VI realm with instrumental and choral works...

As best as can be achieved through digital reproduction methods, the Chopin Etudes are splendid. Interpretively and musically, it's obvious that you're a pianist, because you can't duplicate rubato and dynamic ranges with MIDI. In this regard, it's easier to be a pianist than a trained MIDI technician. Technically, however, I won't comment because MIDI has full control over tempo, notes, and all that we associate with the technical fortitude of playing an Etude. In this regard, it's easier to be a MIDI technician than a pianist. Perhaps the unrest in this thread stems from the lack of disclosure from the outset. It's understandable. In an age of digital piracy, regulation, royalties, rights, etc., the issue of legitimacy of performance is a hot topic in the digital age of MIDI. However, for the purposes of showcasing the possibilities of the VSL product, it is a commanding example of the possibilities and potential that can be achieved with this fine product. 50GB is enormous engine!

The technology quest is improving. Many film and music media outlets "outsource" this kind of technology for expediency - cheap, fast, easy, less liability. I won't place a percentage, but this technology is keeps getting better as it tries to near the direct acoustic performance. All too often, virtual instruments still sound alien at best. Even the best reverb units are guilty of this. When it comes to electronic devices, we can only emulate, and keep emulating, driving costs up to high heaven... At the end, for the human psychoacoustic perception of music, there is no substitute for any acoustic instrument that is played in a fine concert hall. Period!


DISCLAIMER:
Digital vs Analog; Digital vs Acoustic; Digital vs Film; etc... Clearly technology is outpacing fine art and the court of law as the standards for digital acceptance in the fine arts and legal circles is an ongoing debate. An artist can shade or highlight his paintings through his light source(s) - It's fine art. When Ansel Adams dodged and burned a print to bring about the similar contrasts in his final photograph from film, it took time, but we still ended up calling it fine art. When an artist dodges and burns a digital image in Photoshop, can the same level of reverence be implied to the final image with time? In my opinion, NO. Because acoustical instruments, as on the canvas and film, project the image or performance in a transparent manner directly to the viewer or listener. Computer integration of MIDI instruments provides the inter-stage between the performance and the listener where infinite levels of manipulative stages can alter the sound in terms of velocity (tempo), volume (cres/decres), and pitch (to correct wrong notes). I refer to these as intrinsic properties unique the the sound. Unless there is a way to watermark the original waveform, it's anyone's guess as to the legitimacy of the original performance and to the levels of manipulation in the final result. However, mastering is the exception to the debate as EQ, reverb, compression, mixing are accepted parameters for artistic rendering to a direct performance, and thus extrinsic properties of the sound.

When it comes to fine art, and or a submission of musical performance to the professional musical industry or jury (admission to competition and schools, including Piano Society), I am dubious of the legitimacy of ALL recordings made on "digital pianos." MIDI is a major disclaimer for me and that applies to improvisations, compositions, and performances of known composers. Even recordings that are posted here or anywhere else. As in currency, there has to be established standards for legitimacy for a digital piano with MIDI. I believe revealing the sound source or medium is important in the disclosure of fine art. The debate will continue.


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