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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:36 pm 
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Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Alf:
with as much respect, I think that your analogy doesn't work.

I know, that's why it was accompanied by a ;). We Brits call it 'irony' :)
However, the overall idea that "only results" count is still a doubful one to my mind.


On PS we have at least 2 examples of (more or less heavily) MIDI sequenced music

It is well explained on the PS site how Mr Teppei Yamada-Scriba composes and records his music, and how Mr Grant engages in less or more ex post facto editing of his playing. This agrees with a policy of disclosure and integrity. As far as I can see (and I have a reasonable reading knowledge of Italian), nowhere on Mr Colombo's site does it state that these "recordings" are MIDI-input and then sped up. And to describe the payable 192kbs mp3 files as "CD audio quality" is stretching the truth quite a bit as well.


You won't really appreciate GG's late recordings only on the basis that he formerly proved to be a great live performer, will you?

Not really the point I was making. The aim of that example is that Gould was indeed capable of performing live, but renounced from playing in public for reasons other than not being able to play the pieces concerned and having to record them in slow motion and speed them up afterwards.

the (in)famous Joyce Hatto ;)

Quite unfair of you.

Again, I plead guilty to irony (and/or perhaps even sarcasm :))


Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:00 pm 
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Michael_B wrote:
Alf:
with as much respect, I think that your analogy doesn't work.

I know, that's why it was accompanied by a ;). We Brits call it 'irony' :)


Yes, I heard about it. :lol:

Quote:
As far as I can see (and I have a reasonable reading knowledge of Italian), nowhere on Mr Colombo's site does it state that these "recordings" are MIDI-input and then sped up. And to describe the payable 192kbs mp3 files as "CD audio quality" is stretching the truth quite a bit as well.


I agree on both points.

Quote:
Not really the point I was making. The aim of that example is that Gould was indeed capable of performing live, but renounced from playing in public for reasons other than not being able to play the pieces concerned and having to record them in slow motion and speed them up afterwards.


Yet (as a sidenote) some critics used to doubt he could still play after his concert drop-out.

Quote:
Again, I plead guilty to irony (and/or perhaps even sarcasm :))


Don't indulge in it! :P

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:55 pm 
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Don't indulge in it! :P

It is difficult to fight against such deep-rooted cultural predispositions, but I'll try to do my best in future! :oops:

Kind regards,

Michael.

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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:09 pm 
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Annnnd… hello from the world of the future! Or at least from the world of posting on an old topic after a couple of years have gone by.

I just purchased Colombo's recording of the Nutcracker ballet, and was partway through when the sheer lack of affect started to make me wonder what was going on. I had the impression, as have several here, that I was listening to a well-groomed midi file in which no artistic decisions had been made, and no feeling had been expended. The piano sounds electronic too, though it's certainly not bad as such things go.

So I was pleased to find out what was actually going on from the group here. It's really an "uncanny valley" recording, with nothing wrong with any part of it, but an off-putting mechanical nature. I hear there's a program you can apply to midi files to make them seem more like natural performances — maybe that's what's needed here. I wonder if I'd have used up my last emusic download of the month for it if I'd known what I'd be getting, but it's too late for that now!

I don't suppose Chris Breemer would feel like recording this ballet? I'd gladly replace the recording I just paid for with his rendition, and no questions asked.

Kip Williams


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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Hello Kip,

That is a topic bump indeed :!: None of these posters are still here, except me. It was an interesting discussion though.

Did you not sample some of Colombo's recordings before buying then ? It would turn any music lover off, I think, unless you only want to hear how all the notes sound. He's good at putting them all neatly in a row ;-)

Hehe, no, I have no plans for recording the Nutcracker suite, much as I love the ballet. Not sure what exactly Colombo is playing,
I guess someone's transcriptions of selected items ? AFAIK there is no version by the composer.

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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:38 am 
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techneut wrote:
Hello Kip,

That is a topic bump indeed :!: None of these posters are still here, except me. It was an interesting discussion though.

Did you not sample some of Colombo's recordings before buying then ? It would turn any music lover off, I think, unless you only want to hear how all the notes sound. He's good at putting them all neatly in a row ;-)

Hehe, no, I have no plans for recording the Nutcracker suite, much as I love the ballet. Not sure what exactly Colombo is playing,
I guess someone's transcriptions of selected items ? AFAIK there is no version by the composer.


"AFAIK"???? :?: :?: :?: :?


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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:13 am 
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RSPIll wrote:
"AFAIK"???? :?: :?: :?: :?

Yeah I know.... All that I know is that I don't know much :)
Good to see you back Scott.

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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:30 pm 
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I think Scott is wondering what AFIAK means, which is an acronym for As Far As I Know.

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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Ah right, I did not know that. I just like to toss around acronyms :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:15 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
I think Scott is wondering what AFIAK means, which is an acronym for As Far As I Know.


Thanx for translating, Monica.


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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:39 pm 
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I listened to a couple of recordings from this site (selections from the Liapunov etudes, which I know well). This cannot be a real pianist playing. There is almost no expression or nuance, a total lack of rubato, and (in no. 5, which I have learnt) either there are a significant number of misreadings, or I've learnt the piece quite badly! Profoundly unmusical. Btw the website says the Nutcracker is the Taneyev transcription (I'd assumed it might be the Pletnev).


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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:31 pm 
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Interesting, did not know Taneyev transcribed the whole ballet for two hands. The composer and Pletnev both took selected items only, one rather simplified and the rather too self-consciously virtuosic. It's difficult to gauge from Colombo's bloodless snippets but the Taneyev version looks a tour the force. I wonder how that would sound in real capable hands. But complete reductions are a labor of love that not many pianists take on. All these quasi-orchestral tremolos must be real tiring and no fun to practice.

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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:18 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Interesting, did not know Taneyev transcribed the whole ballet for two hands. The composer and Pletnev both took selected items only, one rather simplified and the rather too self-consciously virtuosic. It's difficult to gauge from Colombo's bloodless snippets but the Taneyev version looks a tour the force. I wonder how that would sound in real capable hands. But complete reductions are a labor of love that not many pianists take on. All these quasi-orchestral tremolos must be real tiring and no fun to practice.


I don't think the Taneyev is obstructively difficult, certainly not compared to some transcriptions. However, I must agree that complete reductions aren't the most attractive thing to take on - the Wagner-Klindworth entire Ring cycle springs to mind! I quite like the Pletnev tbh; had half-learnt it a while back but then put it aside.


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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:13 am 
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Interesting thoughts...

As an adult-beginner I had a few teachers but I was very unlucky
and things went not too well, so I have been left learning it on my own.

One of these teachers really gave me the jibbers one day...
because this teacher produced CD’s of their own music
and after a lesson I was shown their music-production-room.

I was stunned. It looked like a 25th-century-technical-operation-theatre
with lots of computers and this teacher actually collected on these computers
the tones of many different instruments and put them together
tone-by-tone as if they were played, but they were not played,
it was all technically put together through the computers.

For example, certain repeats were only put on the computer once
and repeated exactly as they were first computed, as and when they came along...

That was so sad and really gave me the jibbers and my innocence about musicians faded instantly... :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Claudio Colombo
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:08 pm 
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Hy everyone.

My self-presentation is not needed, I suppose: I am the subject of this thread.

This is the exact text, word by word, of my e-mail message sent to Alfonso Bertazzi at 23.04 04/01/2008:

***

Ciao Alfonso. Sì, mi ricordo di te. Ricordo che abbiamo dialogato piacevolmente sul ng, ma non rammento il tema della discussione. Ho sempre letto con molto interesse i tuoi post, ma apprendo ora da te che non partecipi più alla vita del gruppo. Io stesso mi sono limitato a un paio di interventi negli ultimi due anni, per il resto leggiucchio rarissimamente, ma proprio non ho tempo.

Ho appena letto la discussione che mi hai segnalato. Interessante. Non è la prima, sui vari forum che si occupano di musica classica: i toni sono sempre gli stessi. E mai nessuno che si decida ad aprire il suo programma di posta per scrivermi e chiedermi "come faccio". Il "come faccio" secondo me per un musicista, o quantomeno un conoscitore della musica non superficiale, dovrebbe essere ovvio. E infatti tu l'hai capito perfettamente. Altri pianisti l'hanno capito, mi hanno scritto per chiedere conferma, e siamo diventati amici, seppure in forma elettronica.

Per essere più precisi: prendo un pezzo, lo leggo a velocità ridotta, lo rileggo a velocità di esecuzione, o quasi (dipende dalla difficoltà). Durante questa fase definisco i criteri d'interpretazione. Quindi registro. A velocità ridotta, certamente. Quanto ridotta dipende sempre dalla difficoltà tecnica (ho una discreta facilità di lettura, e questo aiuta molto, e quasi sempre conosco già da molti anni i pezzi che sto per incidere, anche se non li ho mai studiati in maniera ortodossa, o magari li ho solo fatti studiare ai miei allievi). Per la registrazione uso Sonar. Cerco di buttarmi il più possibile, ma NON correggo gli errori in Sonar. Se il passaggio non è perfetto mi fermo, cancello da dove ci sono problemi, riprovo il passaggio e poi riprendo la registrazione facendo partire il midi da un po' prima, a volte parecchio prima. Non uso Gigastudio se non per le registrazioni con altri strumenti che non siano a tastiera La tecnica, velocità a parte (e non sempre), non è diversa da quella del montaggio audio nelle sale di incisione tradizionali. Recentemente ho visto un filmato di Glenn Gould che registrava Bach cucendo, ricucendo, ripetendo, smontando e rimontando. Il risultato è fantastico, musicalmente parlando. A me non è mai passato per l'anticamera del cervello di smontare la mia lavatrice per vedere come fa, senza mani, a lavare così bene. Mi interessa che il bucato sia pulito.

Il concetto del bucato, trasferito al mio lavoro, è questo: non me ne importa niente delle mie mani (a maggior ragione trovo imbarazzante che se ne preoccupi qualcun altro), di quanto sia considerato bravo o maldestro, leale o disonesto, mi interessa che quella musica venga conosciuta da tanta gente, potenzialmente da tutti. Non il suo esecutore, ma la musica. So per certo che ci sono tantissimi studenti che si servono di alcune mie registrazioni per trarre suggerimenti. I miei stessi allievi sono fra questi (così non mi telefonano a orari impossibili per chiedermi come si realizza un abbellimento, perché se lo erano dimenticato). Ho anche registrato apposta, su richiesta, dei pezzi che dovevano essere eseguiti a breve ad un esame, o a un saggio, e dei quali non c'erano incisioni disponibili (con il maestro in tournée, o al mare...). I partecipanti a quel forum non hanno nemmeno pensato di andare a vedere la mia home page in italiano, quindi non sanno che sono un insegnante. Poco male.

Ti ringrazio molto per la "soffiata", ma credo che non interverrò in quella discussione. Il mio inglese è pessimo, fra l'altro, e non riuscirei a spiegare convenientemente che secondo me un musicista non è un circense, e che un esecutore deve essere al servizio del compositore, e non della propria fama. Peraltro i loro sospetti si basano sugli indizi sbagliati: nelle esecuzioni solistiche ovviamente non uso il metronomo (nei duo e negli ensemble sì, altrimenti sfido chiunque ad andare a tempo con un partner che non si vede; chi ci ha provato, non faccio nomi, ha combinato disastri), quindi se dicono che suono perfettamente a tempo mi fanno un complimento: uno scarto nell'agogica a velocità ridotta si amplifica accelerando. In realtà nelle mie registrazioni gli scarti li sento eccome, e qualche volta sono palesemente eccessivi. La prova che baro sulla velocità si trova facilmente ascoltando la dinamica dei trilli: io ho una grandissima facilità nell'esecuzione degli abbellimenti, ma certe volte sembro una macchina da cucire... neanche ABM poteva tanto, benché spaccasse le noci col mignolo, con nonchalance, per stupire i commensali. C'è una lunga serie di trilli nella parte finale della Grande Fuga op.133 di LvB che sembra l'allarme dell'ascensore del mio condominio. Il rilievo dell'infallibilità tecnica, beh, è ridicolo: chi è che lascia degli errori nelle registrazioni in studio?

Conosci quell'aneddoto raccontato in più di un'occasione da Piero Rattalino... di quella ragazza molto raccomandata che arrivò a incidere un disco, nonostante non fosse proprio un pianista fenomenale. Dopo aver ascoltato il laboriosissimo montaggio della sua registrazione con un tecnico del suono, lei disse: "Bene, no?" E l'altro: "Le piacerebbe saper suonare così, vero signorina?".

Comunque, per concludere, c'è un pianista di cui non ricordo il nome e di cui credevo di avere conservato un link (ma mi sbagliavo) ad un sito approntato da lui, che adopera esattamente il mio sistema. Lo ha dichiarato nel sito spiegando per filo e per segno cosa fa e perché lo fa. Spiega anche che suonare a una velocità diversa da quella definitiva è molto difficile perché bisogna tradurre al volo il significato musicale di quello che si sta eseguendo proiettandolo sull'esecuzione "ufficiale". E' vero che non è facile, richiede una lunga esperienza, ma è certamente più difficile suonare tutto alla velocità giusta. Insomma, non mi sembrava il caso di spiegarlo, sa tanto di excusatio non petita, e comunque lo capiamo in dodici. Peraltro dai demo avevo ricavato una ben modesta impressione (non ha per esempio risolto la grana del timing del pedale di risonanza, e non ha capito che i movimenti dei salti vanno rallentati esattamente come tutto il resto).

Ciao, e ancora grazie.

Claudio

***

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