Piano Society
Free Classical Keyboard Recordings
It is currently Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:07 pm

All times are UTC - 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Ornaments in Albeniz Tango in D, Op. 165, No. 2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:22 pm 
Ornaments in Albeniz Tango in D, Op. 165, No. 2

In measure 3, LH, is the G# grace note is played on the beat, or before?

In measure 3, RH, does the F#-A-F# ornament begin on the beat, or before?

In measure 7, is the grace note G# LH played at the same time as the C#-E RH, or is the following A LH played at the same time as the C#-E?


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ornaments in Albeniz Tango in D, Op. 165, No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:12 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8407
Hello PSPianist and welcome to Piano Society. A little introduction would be nice when you come onto a forum for the first time; especially if you are asking for assistance in your playing! Also, I am curious - please explain your username.

Regarding the Tango, have you tried listening to recordings? There are hundreds on the Internet and even two very fine
recordings right here on our site: http://pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=18

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ornaments in Albeniz Tango in D, Op. 165, No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:28 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
Listen to ten Tangos, and you'll figure out what to do. IMO, the strictness of ornament realization is not generally an issue for 19th and 20th century works, as it should be for the Baroque and Classical eras.

_________________
Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ornaments in Albeniz Tango in D, Op. 165, No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:59 am
Posts: 242
Oh, I love the Espana suite. :) In my opinion putting any of those ornaments on the beat would disrupt the tango rhythm, especially in the L.H. I personally prefer to put them before the beat. In measure 3 I've always played the R.H. A together with the L.H. G#. It's tonally odd but rhythmically very nice. But what Eddy says is right on--there's a lot of room for personal interpretation here. And a bit of flirtatious rubato would be perfect for the piece too. Have fun!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ornaments in Albeniz Tango in D, Op. 165, No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:49 pm 
Hi All,

I have listened to numerous recordings of the Tango on the Internet. Given that their sound quality is poor, the fact that my speakers are inexpensive, and the high speed of the ornaments, I found it impossible to hear exactly when the LH G# in measure 3 was played in relation to the F#-A-G figure in the RH.

It seemed as though the LH A and RH F# were played together in one recording that was slower than average. This would make sense in that the F#-A-G figure is similar to a mordent, which is never played before the beat in my listening experience. In slower Romantic Period music I've seen, upper mordents written as two small notes can clearly be heard on the beat in the recordings.

In the Tango, any way of playing the m.3 left and right-hand ornaments in terms of timing produces some degree of dissonance. There is so much radical dissonance in the piece overall, and I have no prior experience with this composer. Therefore, I'm concerned about playing these combined ornaments incorrectly, i.e. how much dissonance is too much, or is too little dissonance wrong?

Overall, however, I prefer the less dissonant interpretation noted above.

If anyone knows of a musical edition that specifies how these ornaments are played, please let me know.

The isolated G# ornaments in the left hand do sound like they are played before the beat. I know from past experience, however, that extremely short notes can sound before the beat, when in reality, they are on the beat.

For example, in Mozart K 545, mm. 22-23, I've always played the short appoggiaturas before the beat, because that's what they sound like to me on recordings. Apparently my ears are mistaken, as I recently discovered a scholarly edition that indicates on-the-beat timing. Please comment on this issue, raised in my latest post.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ornaments in Albeniz Tango in D, Op. 165, No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:28 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
PSPianist wrote:
I have listened to numerous recordings of the Tango on the Internet.

Earlier I meant for you to listen to ten Tangos, not 10 performances of this tango. In other words, you just need to have an idea of the style in general, so that you can apply it to your interpretation. If I say College Fight Song, then a certain style comes to mind. You need to know Tango in order to play Tango.

_________________
Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ornaments in Albeniz Tango in D, Op. 165, No. 2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:38 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8407
And don't forget to put a rose between your teeth while you listen. :P

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ornaments in Albeniz Tango in D, Op. 165, No. 2
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:28 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
:lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ornaments in Albeniz Tango in D, Op. 165, No. 2
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:28 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9479
Location: Netherlands
musical-md wrote:
You need to know Tango in order to play Tango.

This calls for generalization.... You need to know everything in order to play anything. :P

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group