Also, many English translations of the Bible start Romans 15:14 with "I myself ...", so the next time you need a little emphasis, throw in a good reflexive pronoun.

Yea, verily. What is good enough for St. Paul is good enough for PS

This is a worrying attitude. If you cut the piano solo repertoire off from the rest of the musical tree, it will eventually wither and become dry and meaningless. We should be learning as much as we possibly can from singers and other instrumentalists. And if you hear a duo or ensemble doing something interesting, you should ask how much of it you can possibly imitate on the piano.

I had that in mind, but I was wondering if these might shed some light on his solo piano music and how it should be played. These are Poles, by the way. Can it not be that these intimate pieces, never intended to be published or played in public and to be burnt after his death, give us a key how Chopin felt his music should be played?

I often wonder also, supposing he were not known by one and by all (Poles apart and no pun intended!) as Frédéric François Chopin but as Fryderyk Franciszek Krzyżanowski (His mother's maiden name) would people not play his music differently?

Can you really disassociate ensemble from solo music? In what way would rubato change anything? If it works for a singer and a pianist why can in not for a pianist or, if it becomes a mess, does it make any difference how many people make it?

I liked these so much that I ordered a copy of the CD (same versions as on You Tube).

What is good enough for SP is good enough for PS...

I'll just beat Chris to it by stating that I didn't know that attitudes could worry.

Alex, I assure you that I'm not doing what you're suggesting, this is just getting back to the matter of evidence category, and Richard is suggesting the same. Just as embouchure of wind-playing has nothing to do with piano playing, so also does the fact that an ensemble of musicians can do a thing (that "2-layered rubato thingy") not prove that a single pianist can do it; whether he/she should or shouldn't isn't my issue. I feel like I'm going in circles. Please respond henceforth, if you or others wish, just to the following:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post.

But how, pray, can you seaprate one thing from another? Is the piano so different from two violins? Do they not make the same music?

Are you not saying this:

"I cannot play this type of rubato so therefore I choose to say it does not exist and even if it does I do not want to acknowledge its existence"?

I mean no agression to you, but just food for thought. Do examine yourself and see.

I am not sure I could play it either, but I realise it might be second nature to some.

Sorry, Richard, but I think two violins is a lot different than a piano.
Eddy - I think I've got a mazurka to show you - played by Rubinstein. At least I remember hearing him do rubato quite clearly. Now I just have to find the recording. Be back later....

Speaking of reflexives...

You didn't bother to listen to the Saint-Saens example I posted a few pages back with the indication of the spots with the kind of contrametric rubato possibly used by Chopin, did you?

Only if you are a metronome. In those passages LH actually is a tempo as humanly (and still musically) possible. RH shapes delicately the melody "around" the LH. I find it so fresh and irresistible. You don't hear anymore that style today (and yesterday either).



Terez, I was afraid you would do it. To my ears that piano roll is quite useless. Piano rolls quality varies but I'm worried if you say that the style seems much the same. It's a parody, plus I don't hear a steady tempo by the LH. There's a lot of what is called "agogic rubato" not the contrametric rubato you're looking for.

Richard, YOU'RE MAKING ME PULL MY HAIR OUT, and I don't have hardly any left. If my question is whether a single pianist can (not may) do a thing or not, it makes no difference to me what an ensemble can do?

Sigh.

Thank you Monica!

No I didn't, but not intentionally. Can you find that again for me? But, are we talking about the same thing or not? "Contrametric" rubato may suggest that we're not, because the notion of a rubato going against a meter sounds once again like a composed device like hemiola (meter against meter) or something. This has to be an interpretive feature that the pianist provides, while suspending the melody-accompaniment relationship in the score. If so, I want to hear this (and hope I have the score for the music).

Sorry, Eddy. For some reason the Rubinstein videos on Youtube won't play for me. I don't know why, they used to....
You'll probably have better examples with what the other members are showing you anyway.