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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:41 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
Gotta love Dutchies nitpicking our English, anyway. :wink:

I wouldn't dream of nitpicking anyone's English here.
It just struck my funnybone that someone would write "I myself". AFAIK that's a first on this forum. It had to be Eddy of course :P

Use Reflexive Pronouns to Add Emphasis

Reflexive pronouns can also be used to add emphasis to a sentence. (In case you care, they are then called intensive pronouns.) For example, if you had witnessed a murder, you could say, “I myself saw the madman's handiwork.” Sure, it's a tad dramatic, but it's grammatically correct. If you want to emphasize how proud you are of your new artwork, you could say, “I painted it myself.” Again, myself just adds emphasis. The meaning of the sentence doesn't change if you take out the word myself; it just has a different feeling because now it lacks the added emphasis.
Also, many English translations of the Bible start Romans 15:14 with "I myself ...", so the next time you need a little emphasis, throw in a good reflexive pronoun. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:24 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Also, many English translations of the Bible start Romans 15:14 with "I myself ...", so the next time you need a little emphasis, throw in a good reflexive pronoun. :wink:

Yea, verily. What is good enough for St. Paul is good enough for PS :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:12 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Your having posted songs, has caused me to realize that right from my original post on this thread, with my reference to singing, etc., I wonder if I inadvertently pointed the discussion in the wrong direction, because my intended theme was tempo shifts (rubato) of melody vs accompaniment in composed piano solo works. It is evident that many folks contributed with references to singers and vocal music, etc. which of course meant nothing to me seeking a discussion in application of rubato to piano literature. I'm not wanting to rehash anything, just making the observation that It probably would have been better if I had never made any reference to singers, accompaning singers as analogy, etc.

This is a worrying attitude. If you cut the piano solo repertoire off from the rest of the musical tree, it will eventually wither and become dry and meaningless. We should be learning as much as we possibly can from singers and other instrumentalists. And if you hear a duo or ensemble doing something interesting, you should ask how much of it you can possibly imitate on the piano.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:37 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Richard,
Thanks for the links. I listened to them all. I would never have thought these to be Chopin. My knowledge of Polish or slavic tongues in general is nill, except that I understand the Russian alphabet a bit. Chopin's style in these songs, to me, is so different from how I know him as the composer of piano music. BTW, the singer (a lovely brunett) does a great job. I have no idea what these songs are about, but the are most soul-full.

Your having posted songs, has caused me to realize that right from my original post on this thread, with my reference to singing, etc., I wonder if I inadvertently pointed the discussion in the wrong direction, because my intended theme was tempo shifts (rubato) of melody vs accompaniment in composed piano solo works. It is evident that many folks contributed with references to singers and vocal music, etc. which of course meant nothing to me seeking a discussion in application of rubato to piano literature. I'm not wanting to rehash anything, just making the observation that It probably would have been better if I had never made any reference to singers, accompaning singers as analogy, etc.


I had that in mind, but I was wondering if these might shed some light on his solo piano music and how it should be played. These are Poles, by the way. Can it not be that these intimate pieces, never intended to be published or played in public and to be burnt after his death, give us a key how Chopin felt his music should be played?

I often wonder also, supposing he were not known by one and by all (Poles apart and no pun intended!) as Frédéric François Chopin but as Fryderyk Franciszek Krzyżanowski (His mother's maiden name) would people not play his music differently?

Can you really disassociate ensemble from solo music? In what way would rubato change anything? If it works for a singer and a pianist why can in not for a pianist or, if it becomes a mess, does it make any difference how many people make it?

I liked these so much that I ordered a copy of the CD (same versions as on You Tube).

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:45 pm 
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techneut wrote:
musical-md wrote:
Also, many English translations of the Bible start Romans 15:14 with "I myself ...", so the next time you need a little emphasis, throw in a good reflexive pronoun. :wink:

Yea, verily. What is good enough for St. Paul is good enough for PS :lol:


What is good enough for SP is good enough for PS... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:12 pm 
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hanysz wrote:
This is a worrying attitude.
I'll just beat Chris to it by stating that I didn't know that attitudes could worry. :wink:

Alex, I assure you that I'm not doing what you're suggesting, this is just getting back to the matter of evidence category, and Richard is suggesting the same. Just as embouchure of wind-playing has nothing to do with piano playing, so also does the fact that an ensemble of musicians can do a thing (that "2-layered rubato thingy") not prove that a single pianist can do it; whether he/she should or shouldn't isn't my issue. I feel like I'm going in circles. Please :) respond henceforth, if you or others wish, just to the following:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:29 pm 
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But how, pray, can you seaprate one thing from another? Is the piano so different from two violins? Do they not make the same music?

Are you not saying this:

"I cannot play this type of rubato so therefore I choose to say it does not exist and even if it does I do not want to acknowledge its existence"?

I mean no agression to you, but just food for thought. Do examine yourself and see.

I am not sure I could play it either, but I realise it might be second nature to some.

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"Please do not shoot the pianist
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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:57 pm 
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Sorry, Richard, but I think two violins is a lot different than a piano.
Eddy - I think I've got a mazurka to show you - played by Rubinstein. At least I remember hearing him do rubato quite clearly. Now I just have to find the recording. Be back later....

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:59 pm 
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richard66 wrote:
techneut wrote:
musical-md wrote:
Also, many English translations of the Bible start Romans 15:14 with "I myself ...", so the next time you need a little emphasis, throw in a good reflexive pronoun. :wink:

Yea, verily. What is good enough for St. Paul is good enough for PS :lol:


What is good enough for SP is good enough for PS... :roll:


Speaking of reflexives...

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:06 pm 
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musical-md wrote:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post. :roll:


You didn't bother to listen to the Saint-Saens example I posted a few pages back with the indication of the spots with the kind of contrametric rubato possibly used by Chopin, did you?

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Terez wrote:
In a way I can see why you used that example. I think he still mostly uses hands-together rubato, though I can see some element of the 'steady accompaniment' rubato in the bars you indicated. His LH still gets a little off-kilter, though, don't you think?


Only if you are a metronome. In those passages LH actually is a tempo as humanly (and still musically) possible. RH shapes delicately the melody "around" the LH. I find it so fresh and irresistible. You don't hear anymore that style today (and yesterday either).

Terez wrote:
However...I found what appears to be a piano roll of Saint-Saëns doing some Chopin - the 15/2 nocturne (they even include the quote :lol:). Is that real? I'm guessing it is, since the style seems much the same. I don't understand the technology, so I'm not sure what the differences are between a roll and a recording.


Terez, I was afraid you would do it. To my ears that piano roll is quite useless. Piano rolls quality varies but I'm worried if you say that the style seems much the same. It's a parody, plus I don't hear a steady tempo by the LH. There's a lot of what is called "agogic rubato" not the contrametric rubato you're looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:39 pm 
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Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
richard66 wrote:
But how, pray, can you seaprate one thing from another? Is the piano so different from two violins? Do they not make the same music?

Are you not saying this:

"I cannot play this type of rubato so therefore I choose to say it does not exist and even if it does I do not want to acknowledge its existence"?

I mean no agression to you, but just food for thought. Do examine yourself and see.

I am not sure I could play it either, but I realise it might be second nature to some.

Richard, YOU'RE MAKING ME PULL MY HAIR OUT, and I don't have hardly any left. :!: If my question is whether a single pianist can (not may) do a thing or not, it makes no difference to me what an ensemble can do?

Sigh.

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


Last edited by musical-md on Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:39 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Sorry, Richard, but I think two violins is a lot different than a piano.
Eddy - I think I've got a mazurka to show you - played by Rubinstein. At least I remember hearing him do rubato quite clearly. Now I just have to find the recording. Be back later....

Thank you Monica!

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:47 pm 
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alf wrote:
musical-md wrote:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post. :roll:


You didn't bother to listen to the Saint-Saens example I posted a few pages back with the indication of the spots with the kind of contrametric rubato possibly used by Chopin, did you?

No I didn't, but not intentionally. Can you find that again for me? But, are we talking about the same thing or not? "Contrametric" rubato may suggest that we're not, because the notion of a rubato going against a meter sounds once again like a composed device like hemiola (meter against meter) or something. This has to be an interpretive feature that the pianist provides, while suspending the melody-accompaniment relationship in the score. If so, I want to hear this (and hope I have the score for the music). :)

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:31 pm 
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Sorry, Eddy. For some reason the Rubinstein videos on Youtube won't play for me. I don't know why, they used to....
You'll probably have better examples with what the other members are showing you anyway.

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