Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)

jlr43 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:13 am

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Joe, if you'd like to criticize my recordings, I put up some really awful ones from my senior recital on General - so feel free.

Well I actually had googled you and found that recital on the Internet already. :oops:

Of course I would never retaliate, so I didn't want to mention it. If you'd like to know, I listened to the Ocean and Winter Wind. Not the worst, and the slips don't bother me in a live performance, but I do think you need to do considerable work on technique still to really be able to play these pieces well since many of the notes were muddled in pedal and uneven. I know you don't like Czerny, but I think the Chopin etudes do require a bit more preparatory work. Just my limited opinion of course. I would be glad to do a more detailed critique of something if you really ever wanted that.

That said, I apologize for being huffy before, and after considering further your remark on prelude 8, I think you make a good point -- some of the pauses probably are a little long. I don't want it to be totally even to bring out the agitato idea, but it probably shouldn't be too much.

Terez · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:24 am

jlr43 wrote:

Not the worst, and the slips don't bother me in a live performance, but I do think you need to do considerable work on technique still to really be able to play these pieces well since many of the notes were muddled in pedal and uneven.

Agreed.

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I know you don't like Czerny, but I think the Chopin etudes do require a bit more preparatory work.

Perhaps. If so I'm screwed, because I'll never be able to make myself practice Czerny. I'm hoping a bit of cross-practicing on other etudes and Bach will do the trick (along with continued slow practice on these etudes).

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That said, I apologize for being huffy before, and after considering further your remark on prelude 8, I think you make a good point -- some of the pauses probably are a little long. I don't want it to be totally even to bring out the agitato idea, but it probably shouldn't be too much.

Like I said, no sweat. I was reluctant to comment mostly because we don't know each other and I feared it would come off as random to you. As for the agitato, I think it takes care of itself in the polyrhythm, with some tasteful rubato (though let's not debate about that again :lol:

). In this one the melody is what holds it all together (kinda like 25/1 in that sense).

jlr43 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:45 am

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Perhaps. If so I'm screwed, because I'll never be able to make myself practice Czerny. I'm hoping a bit of cross-practicing on other etudes and Bach will do the trick (along with continued slow practice on these etudes).

I should have said, too, that IMHO the Chopin etudes in a way are the most difficult pieces in the entire standard literature. If you can play those, you can play anything. Even the Lizzt Paganinis and Transcendentals pale in comparison IMO. Have you checked out Moscheles' etudes, Op. 70? Chopin often used those as preparatory work for his own etudes (I think Chopin also liked Moscheles' playing, which is rarity

) Regarding practice of the Chopin etudes themselves, do you ever use Cortot's preparatory work for them? IMO absolutely wonderful exercises, rhythmic patterns, etc.

I love Bach too. Actually funny that the only other time I really got heated about criticism was regarding the Bach WTC (you may remember that -- you were involved there too :oops:

). I think Bach and Chopin tend to do that to me; I agree with you that they're the pinnacle for piano (though neither one is my favorite composer), and one always thus wants to play them perfectly even though it's especially impossible with their music.

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As for the agitato, I think it takes care of itself in the polyrhythm, with some tasteful rubato

. True, my LH triplet should probably be more pronounced to help fix that too. I know both Chopin and Liszt insisted that be clear in their teaching.

Terez · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:03 am

jlr43 wrote:

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Perhaps. If so I'm screwed, because I'll never be able to make myself practice Czerny. I'm hoping a bit of cross-practicing on other etudes and Bach will do the trick (along with continued slow practice on these etudes).

I should have said, too, that IMHO the Chopin etudes in a way are the most difficult pieces in the entire standard literature.

I'm working on the most difficult of them, but I'm still of the opinion that many of the preludes are just as difficult. I think people often make the mistake of thinking that the preludes are in general easier, just because there are more easy preludes than easy etudes. The most difficult preludes are right up there with the most difficult etudes, even when they are shorter.

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If you can play those, you can play anything.

One day.

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Have you checked out Moscheles' etudes, Op. 70? Chopin often used those as preparatory work for his own etudes (I think Chopin also liked Moscheles' playing, which is rarity

) Regarding practice of the Chopin etudes themselves, do you ever use Cortot's preparatory work for them? IMO absolutely wonderful exercises, rhythmic patterns, etc.

Moscheles, I don't care for much, though I understand why Chopin liked him better than certain other contemporaries. Alfie tried to talk me into doing Cortot's preparatory exercises, but I feel the same way about those as I do about Czerny. I do have the Cortot edition, though, and I find that his fingering fits with my ideas much better than any other editor. Mikuli's fingerings are often quite strange, and the sort of thing I doubt Chopin would have let him get away with in lessons (for example, on 10/2, the E major passage with the long sustained octave in the bass, Mikuli fingers it 4-5-4-5 etc. while Cortot fingers it 4-5-3-5 etc....and it turns out, Chopin wrote the latter fingering in himself).

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I love Bach too. Actually funny that the only other time I really got heated about criticism was regarding the Bach WTC (you may remember that -- you were involved there too :oops:

).

I do remember it! Only vaguely, so I wasn't sure if I was misremembering (it came to mind after you responded to me and George), but I seemed to remember Chris using one of those adjectives you don't like. You were new-ish then weren't you?

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I think Bach and Chopin tend to do that to me; I agree with you that they're the pinnacle for piano (though neither one is my favorite composer), and one always thus wants to play them perfectly even though it's especially impossible with their music.

I find their technique to be more instructive and generally applicable than that of other composers. Of course, it helps that they are my favorites too. :wink:

pianolady · **Joined:** Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm **Posts:** 8026

Terez wrote:

Usually when I comment it's on y'alls recordings, though I don't feel obligated to praise. My last comment on one of Monica's recordings was unappreciated, so I'm unsure how to comment on hers in the future

Terez, you are not really a member of PS and so you are not required to comment on members' recordings. But the fact that you sometimes do is I'm sure appreciated by all. If I failed to acknowledge one of your comments, then I apologize; I'm usually careful about things like that. However, why did you not tell something like this to me directly, instead of this silly, immature third-party manner? Are we in 7th grade again here or what? :roll:

That's it from me here - good that you and Joe have kissed and made up.

Terez · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:39 am

pianolady wrote:

Terez wrote:

Usually when I comment it's on y'alls recordings, though I don't feel obligated to praise. My last comment on one of Monica's recordings was unappreciated, so I'm unsure how to comment on hers in the future

Terez, you are not really a member of PS and so you are not required to comment on members' recordings.

That's good to know.

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But the fact that you sometimes do is I'm sure appreciated by all. If I failed to acknowledge one of your comments, then I apologize; I'm usually careful about things like that. However, why did you not tell something like this to me directly, instead of this silly, immature third-party manner? Are we in 7th grade again here? :roll:

I had wondered the same thing myself. It wasn't that my comment was unacknowledged - you got upset about it, and immediately proceeded to treat me very strangely, as if you held a grudge about it. I have considered emailing you about it several times, but I was reluctant because I (for some strange reason) feared I would get a snarky response.

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That's it from me here - good that you and Joe have kissed and made up.

I always prefer getting along to not getting along.

Terez · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:03 am

I feel the need to add that I really like PS and everyone here, and the fact that I can't figure out how to get along with some of you at times is certainly my fault, at least to a point. I have the same problem in every internet community where I am a member, so I should be honest about that. I love having conversations with you guys about music, though of course those are always best when there is no ill will between the members involved (so that we should never be reluctant to disagree with each other), so I want to make it clear I don't have any ill will for anyone here, and I apologize for being the way I am (whatever that is - I'm still trying to figure it out). I would like to be a real member some day, but in the meantime I hope that I can add something to the conversations here as I've always tried to do. And I will occasionally post links to practice recordings for people to criticize (for now probably in the Chopin etudes thread) if they are of a mind to do so, or more generally because the nature of this forum leads one to wonder how the individual in question plays the piano, and while I realize not everyone cares, it seems to be an unspoken requirement of sorts.

jlr43 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:49 pm

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I'm working on the most difficult of them, but I'm still of the opinion that many of the preludes are just as difficult. I think people often make the mistake of thinking that the preludes are in general easier, just because there are more easy preludes than easy etudes. The most difficult preludes are right up there with the most difficult etudes, even when they are shorter.

Yes, I agree. I think if Nos. 5, 16, and 19 of the preludes were longer, they would be among the most difficult works in Chopin's canon.

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Alfie tried to talk me into doing Cortot's preparatory exercises, but I feel the same way about those as I do about Czerny. I do have the Cortot edition, though, and I find that his fingering fits with my ideas much better than any other editor. Mikuli's fingerings are often quite strange, and the sort of thing I doubt Chopin would have let him get away with in lessons (for example, on 10/2, the E major passage with the long sustained octave in the bass, Mikuli fingers it 4-5-4-5 etc. while Cortot fingers it 4-5-3-5 etc....and it turns out, Chopin wrote the latter fingering in himself).

Interesting, it's just the opposite for me. Cortot often seems to finger to suit his musical intentions, but they often don't fit my hand whereas I actually use Mikuli's edition of the preludes overall, because I like his fingerings, but then open Cortot for the exercises. Btw, where is Alfonzo? I actually liked his playing

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So I want to make it clear I don't have any ill will for anyone here, and I apologize for being the way I am (whatever that is - I'm still trying to figure it out).

Well as you said before, no sweat. I could very easily say the same thing about myself. We all have our foibles...

Terez · **Posted:** Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:33 pm

Joe wrote:

Terez wrote:

Alfie tried to talk me into doing Cortot's preparatory exercises, but I feel the same way about those as I do about Czerny. I do have the Cortot edition, though, and I find that his fingering fits with my ideas much better than any other editor. Mikuli's fingerings are often quite strange, and the sort of thing I doubt Chopin would have let him get away with in lessons (for example, on 10/2, the E major passage with the long sustained octave in the bass, Mikuli fingers it 4-5-4-5 etc. while Cortot fingers it 4-5-3-5 etc....and it turns out, Chopin wrote the latter fingering in himself).

Interesting, it's just the opposite for me. Cortot often seems to finger to suit his musical intentions, but they often don't fit my hand whereas I actually use Mikuli's edition of the preludes overall, because I like his fingerings, but then open Cortot for the exercises. Btw, where is Alfonzo? I actually liked his playing

Doesn't everyone? :wink:

He's made some posts recently in the AR and on General, if you feel like looking. As for the fingerings, to be honest my opinion is based on some pretty limited cross-referencing I've done. I'm actually really bad about paying attention to fingerings in books in general. Partly that is because I've come across some bad ones and I feel like I can't trust them, and I'm too lazy to research which fingerings were Chopin's. Partly it's because I learned my first Bach pieces from a book with no fingerings and had to figure them out on my own. I like that. But I need to find a happy medium somewhere. I have a bad habit of not really starting to work on a piece until it's memorized. Sometimes by then I've gathered the best fingerings from the score and my own experimentation. Sometimes not. Like, I just discovered I was using all the wrong fingerings in 10/4. I'm sure the right ones are in Mikuli, Cortot, or both, but I haven't checked yet. I'm trying to learn the logic behind them...and the frustrating thing is that I know the logic behind them a lot of the time, but I still make bad choices.

I was teaching Für Elise to an 11-year-old girl recently. She really wanted to learn it. As I would demonstrate it for her, I remembered the fingerings I used when I taught it to myself as a child. Needless to say, they were horribly illogical fingerings. But it made me laugh.

musical-md · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:42 am

I always decide my own fingering for everything I play. Any fingering that I play that is the same in a score is coincidence or an agreement between minds.

Rachfan · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:10 am

Hi,

I take a stance similar to Eddy's on fingering. Everyone's hand is a bit different from the next pianist's, so there will be variations on how best to adapt. For the most part I figure out my own fingerings too. I look for efficient and comfortable options, and the fewer fingers involved, the better. Often I can bring scale fingering of a particular key into the fingering scheme. If there is a tricky figure that happens to be fingered in the edition, I'll try it, but I might accept or reject it and work on another approach. When it comes to fingering by composers, the ones I never fail to consider is Rachmaninoff's, but keeping in mind his huge hands. Seldom did he write out fingerings, but all the more reason take notice of them. Fingering by publishing editors interests me the least, as sometimes it's abominable; however, any fingering developed by Rafael Joseffy I inspect closely, as he was a genius in this regard. Even at that, if it's not a good fit for my hand, then I work on modifications.

Some pianists write out huge amounts of fingering in a score. I limit it when first studying a new piece to passage work where it's immediately obvious to me that I need to work out some fingerings from the get-go. No matter how useful initial fingerings might seem, I always consider them to be tentative. And sure enough, as I become more familiar with the music, often I'll later change a fingering at least slightly to another that seems more natural. The other instance of devising fingering occurs during practicing. If there is a jerk of the hand followed by wrong notes, that calls for an examination of fingering to diagnose and improve it.

Fingering is important, but sometimes it's not the last word. For example, an error might occur due to poor anticipation and timing of getting the hand into position. Or, it might be that the entire playing mechanism--quite beyond fingers per se--needs to participate, for instance, perhaps the elbow needs to move away from the body allowing the upper arm to better direct the forearm, wrist and hand to their destination. These movements probably fall under what the pedagogue Josef Gat used to refer to as "integrative" and "synthesizing" motions. Or maybe the two wrists need to find an accommodation such as raising one and lowering the other such that they can "cohabitate" in close quarters on the keyboard. This, of course, is the choreography of the hands. And need I add that sometimes, quite apart from fingering, that one hand (the LH being the most usual suspect) simply does not actually "know" its part well enough, calling then for a hands-alone drill for that passage. I think that this kind of analysis is a fascinating part of practicing.

David

musical-md · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:11 am

David,
I can tell by reading your post that, like me, you love to practice!

Rachfan · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:53 pm

Hi Eddy,

Yes, I love practicing.

What other activity than learning new pieces and practicing them for performance or recording could better keep the mind sharp? Given that, practicing carries over into other life endeavors too in a useful and positive way.

David

88man · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:16 pm

24 Tirades, Op. 1:

jlr43 wrote:

1. "It has more to do with the fact that I find these rather vague assertions that "critics" throw around to be meaningless crap, usually because they want to champion their personal favorite and denigrate everyone else (i.e., rather unobjectively)."
2. "And thank god I don't have to listen to cheese-sniffing critics pointing it out to me. "Unfaithful to the score! Unfaithful to the score!"
3. "Even the greatest of the great, who IMO aren't great because they played it a standard way but because they played it in a new way, which is why Kissin, Pogorelich, Argerich, Ashkenazy, Garrick Ohlsson, as fluid and perfect as they are, will never interest me and I will never think they're great."
4. "I only say it to point out that I'm a bit sick of people vaguely criticizing my "musicality,"
5. "Nah, don't bother. I don't want to pollute any of the wonderful interpretations of these pieces on the site with my engineer-like and tension-filled efforts. Thanks for the time."
6. "What I didn't appreciate about the posts above is that one made blanket statements about my "musicality" and my playing like an "engineer" without pointing to any real details and the other made outrageous assertions about tension that she could have no way of knowing, which I resent in two people who, at least these days, never (rarely?) post any recordings of their own to be criticized. And they phrase it as statements of fact."
7. "And god, to be told that I have tension in my hands, how absurd!"
8. "Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?"
9. "No thanks. No sense in putting something up that's generally perceived as unmusical."
10. "In certain cases, you could also ask yourself why you don't like something. Perhaps it's because certain people play better than you."
11. "I don't like generalizations; I think they're garbage made to think the reviewer is high and mighty and really the arbiter of taste and I'm human and take offense to that.
12. "There was really nothing specifically good that anyone could say about my preludes, and that means I failed or no one is even hearing a fraction of what I hear."
13. "I gave Jana Marinova a less-than-glowing review when I had every right to and you questioned that right."
14. "No use talking to a stone wall."
15. "I've taken criticism from countless people, teachers, parents, and classmates for years."
16. "I will leave you all with your pompous generalizing and idealizing about perfect Chopin interpretations and no longer infect any more with my obviously toxic and unwanted presence here.
17. "From the reviewer's perspedctive, it also implies that they may not really know what they're talking about. That's really the only thing that bothers me is when people do that -- toss around empty adjectives and characterizations that, of course, cannot help but influence other people who see it."
18. "Personally, I have found most playing on here, as well as most professional playing, singularly unmusical (for my taste of course;"
19. "I acknowledge I've been an ass, but is it too late to ask you to put these up?"
20. "I'll often say that it's only my limited opinion (e.g., IMHO) and not come in like George, acting like a bit of a hot shot and as if he has the last word on it."
21. "The bottom line is that anyone putting stuff out for the world ought to be ready to take any type of criticism or comments the way a professional would, and that would include, to some extent, some of my responses to them, without getting bent out of shape about it. That's the way it is in the world."
22. "What can I say about anger? I'm still an angry young man."
23. "I hate to bring this up, but do you think I would have donated $200 to the site if I didn't basically like it?"
24. "Thanks again, and sorry that I'm such an unwelcome asshole."

I finally got the chance to chime in. No, this is not a transcript from Jerry Springer nor the Maury Povich Show... Anger is hopeless. To the insults cast onto me, PS, and to almost everyone in the thread, I choose to respond with humor, and now I can't stop laughing at the above chronology of events. Since no one is talking about the 24 Preludes anymore, Joe gave an encore performance of the 24 Tirades. My favorite Prel--, I mean Tirades are Nos. 4, 6, 10, 11, 15, 18, 19, 20 (of course), 22, and the dramatic 24.

I am not on the site often enough to have known better than to deal with a belligerent individual. I am not hurt or angry, just very sad to see such great talent bestowed to an irate soul. It's interesting how one's temperament and personality finds its way into the music. After the reality show that has unfolded here, my initial statements (erratic, exaggerated, flip, awkwardly disjointed, need for maturity), seems to apply to the behavior, as well as the music. After reading your 24 Tirades, there is no purpose in explaining what "musicality" means; the best advice anyone can give is to heal thyself first of your viral anger and arrogance, because it's also infecting your music. I am not the only one who hears it. Admittedly, you've had trouble with similar criticism, anger, and basic social skills. The writing is on the thread(s)! This was my first encounter with Joe, and respectfully my last!!

jlr43 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:10 pm

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the insults cast onto me, PS, and to almost everyone in the thread, I choose to respond with humor, and now I can't stop laughing at the above chronology of events.

I apologized for that, and I apologize for any insults to you (although I was referring to critics in the abstract, not to you; other than that I don't see how I insulted you). However, many of the quotes you listed above don't really fit into that category and I was perfectly justified in making. Just because you fling a criticism at someone doesn't mean they have to agree with it.

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Joe gave an encore performance of the 24 Tirades. My favorite Prel--, I mean Tirades are Nos. 4, 6, 10, 11, 15, 18, 19, 20 (of course), 22, and the dramatic 24.

Now who's flinging the insults? If I was petty and childish, which I can perfectly admit, does your coming in and assigning me 24 Tirades really accomplish anything? (other than, in my limited opinion, making yourself seem clever).

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I am not on the site often enough to have known better than to deal with a belligerent individual. I am not hurt or angry, just very sad to see such great talent bestowed to an irate soul.

Right, and after barely knowing me at all, you feel you can claim that I'm just generally "belligerent and irate." I guess those wouldn't constitute insults to you.

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It's interesting how one's temperament and personality finds its way into the music

It is, and you may have a point there. Maybe I don't like the limp, bland, flaccid, self-consciously "musical" performances of Chopin I tend to hear in these times. Just my limited opinion of course.

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After reading your 24 Tirades, there is no purpose in explaining what "musicality" means; the best advice anyone can give is to heal thyself first of your viral anger and arrogance, because it's also infecting your music.

There's always a purpose, if only for my own enlightenment. That's what irritated me in the first place. But since you only came back and heaped ad hominem attacks (e.g., "viral anger," "arrogance") upon this conversation, I guess there isn't a point, no. As for infecting my music, I guess you believe that if you say so, then it's simply the truth (i.e., "matters of taste? no such thing!"). I don't happen to agree with that.

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I am not the only one who hears it. Admittedly, you've had trouble with similar criticism, anger, and basic social skills.

Right, I keep forgetting that the way most people argue is simply to appeal to others for the truth of their position (a classic version of the "argumentum ad verecundiam," which I think has been amply demonstrated on this thread). Maybe I do have problems with anger and criticism (though not social skills at least outside of this forum), but then maybe some of it is justified. My point in mentioning those other pianists was to show just that. Everyone may or may not like them, but that doesn't make it true that they're great or even good (from the interpretation perspective, which is pretty muddy territory) and I don't think they are personally. I think it's almost a moot point to say that's only my opinion, but in the end everyone should think for themselves and stop making appeals to authorities, such appeals by definition constituting fallacious reasoning. In your case, who knows? You didn't present any evidence to back up your points.

Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)

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