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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:12 pm 
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Hi Joe,

I gave you very favorable comments--which went unacknowledged. Now I see from your comments that "generalizations" are "garbage", which must surely include praise as well. But it's your right to be dismissive. In future I'll reserve my time and comments for the work of other pianists here. Again thanks for the opportunity to hear your Chopin Preludes.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:22 pm 
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It must have built up something inside you, is my guess. I can't explain your waspish reactions otherwise.


The criticism? Nope. But, to repeat myself, I don't like when people dismiss something as needing more musicality (about as vague a statement as you can make), and then don't explain why, for it's that "why" that might enable me to improve. From the reviewer's perspedctive, it also implies that they may not really know what they're talking about. That's really the only thing that bothers me is when people do that -- toss around empty adjectives and characterizations that, of course, cannot help but influence other people who see it -- for what to do about that in the short term...if something lacks musicality, then I guess it just does for that person, but it's sort of unproductive for the person being commented on. But yes, I admit it's their prerogative to do so. Personally, I have found most playing on here, as well as most professional playing, singularly unmusical (for my taste of course; Julian Gorus's nocturne is the one exception recently -- wow). For example, I detest Kissin and find it totally unmusical; many others will disagree and that's fine. I usually have a very definite idea (particularly for standard repertoire like Chopin) of exactly what I want to hear in a particular piece (akin to Terez's "pickiness" I guess :P ), but I also try to hear it from the other person's perspective. In many cases, though, something is downright fumbling and gauche IMO but I still try to find something encouraging to say, and of course that would generally fall into the "musical" category -- i.e., when the technique is bad, it's difficult to even tell (e.g., when it's uneven, grossly pedalled, unclear) what the musical intention is, but I still try because I think that's more appropriate for an amateur forum. But certainly, I'd be glad to use the same style I use when I write critical reviews of professional performances -- that is, be brutally honest and tear apart technique, interpretation, everything, say exactly what I think. I could have started with your Kinderszenen :mrgreen: I could be like Terez and post nothing and only comment on others. :)

Second, I apologize for any "labels" I may have used. You're right, that was uncalled for.

Third, I acknowledge I've been an ass, but is it too late to ask you to put these up? I know how imperfect these are, but it will probably be the last thing I post for a while anyway; things are going to get busy at work soon.

Thanks,

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:49 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
From the reviewer's perspedctive, it also implies that they may not really know what they're talking about.

That could be the problem, that we don't know what we are talking about here.

jlr43 wrote:
Personally, I have found most playing on here, as well as most professional playing, singularly unmusical (for my taste of course;

Then why on earth are you hanging out here with us dumb unmusical amateurs ? Isn't there some elite piano club where only recordings according to your taste are produced ?

jlr43 wrote:
I could have started with your Kinderszenen :mrgreen:

Oh yes, I'd fully expected you to tear those to shreds. Got away lucky didn't I !

jlr43 wrote:
Second, I apologize for any "labels" I may have used. You're right, that was uncalled for.

Third, I acknowledge I've been an ass, but is it too late to ask you to put these up? I know how imperfect these are, but it will probably be the last thing I post for a while anyway; things are going to get busy at work soon.


Anything for you Joe, obviously. I'd gladly spend an hour or so of my free time to host your recordings. I'm too baffled by your unexpected volte-face to say no anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:50 pm 
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You're right, David. Joe didn't acknowledge me either! Thanks a lot Joe. :x And now you expect us to put up the recordings? Do you know how long that will take.... :?: :x

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Oh Chris, you got in before me. If you want me to help, I can do so over the weekend. There is no rush here.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Quote:
You have to remember that those here who commented had to invest a lot of their personal time listening to You play and then they took even more time to say some words about your playing. True, you don't always have to agree on everything - lots of times we all disagree.


Very true -- but then, so have I. At least Chris acknowledged that, but I don't think anyone else has. And yes, we don't have to agree on everything (it's far more interesting if we don't), but I don't phrase my comments as absolute. I'll often say that it's only my limited opinion (e.g., IMHO) and not come in like George, acting like a bit of a hot shot and as if he has the last word on it.

Quote:
But to come back with such biting words has essentially ensured that no one will want to ever comment on your recordings again. And not only that, but I don't want outsiders to see what has happened here for fear that they will be too afraid to ever want to speak on our forum.


I apologize for that.

Quote:
You are a very good pianist, but you need a softer manner when commenting here.


Commenting on others? The only thing I would object to in this statement is that if people feel that they can, for instance, use adjectives (like "ugly," "erratic," "lacking musicality," "heavy-handed" in the past) and say what they think about my playing, I should be allowed to do the same and not hold back. I've held back many such descriptors and thoughts in the past (though I'm not certainly not at all innocent of it), because I don't think it's really productive, but as they say, it's a two-way street. And in particular, those who dish out should be willing to take as well. You're right that I overreacted here, but I've taken many comments gracefully in the past, so I don't think Eddy's comments were fair either. The bottom line is that anyone putting stuff out for the world ought to be ready to take any type of criticism or comments the way a professional would, and that would include, to some extent, some of my responses to them, without getting bent out of shape about it. That's the way it is in the world. I apologize again for some of the comments in this thread crossing over into "rude" territory.

Quote:
Since you asked for my opinion on your Preludes - specifically your use of rubato, I'll tell you what I think. But if you bite my head off, then I'll....well...I dunno what, but I'll do something.


No, I never would with you anyway. When you object to something, you pretty much always say why (and are clear about it too), and I appreciate that.

Quote:
except that on no. 21, the first part, the left hands sounds a little too 'notey' and could use a little more pedal. I've been accused of playing too 'notey' before in certain pieces too - and usually I like to be 'too notey' at times. You're probably happy playing this prelude this way too and it's not bad, but just could go a little smoother with a touch on the pedal and fit with the whole piece better.


I agree. I think I need to work the pedaling out better for 21 (one of the more subtle ones to interpret IMO). It seems easy for it either to be too dry or too muddled.

Quote:
Then I listened to nos. 4 and 6. No. 6 I think is fine. No.4 is another story. You start out fine, but then bar 12 - that lead-in to the second part is I feel too abrupt and jarring. From that point on, you get faster and faster and the whole part sound so angry! I thought this piece is supposed to be played 'lento' or 'largo' (not looking at the score now) throughout. Did you drop the LH octave in the middle? I did like that!


I agree about No. 4 as well, I think especially the triplet was a little too quick and jarring, so it gave that effect. What can I say about anger? I'm still an angry young man :P

Quote:
Well, that's it. Since you have not bothered to comment on most of my recordings, you will understand if I don't listen to the rest of your Preludes.


To be honest, I don't think this is quite fair. In fact, I think I have commented on more of your recordings than you have of mine. I recorded on 3 or 4 of yours at the beginning (couple of Chopin, Granados, and maybe something else I can't remember) plus that recent video, and this is really only the second time you have ever commented on mine (first was the first Chopin prelude takes, though that was very brief). At least this is how I remember it.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Location: Connecticut, USA
Quote:
Then why on earth are you hanging out here with us dumb unmusical amateurs ? Isn't there some elite piano club where only recordings according to your taste are produced ?


Geez, Chris, all I meant was that taste is very individual, and my playing is not for most taste, but I can also say that about most other people. Terez seems to agree about this aspect, at least I thought. I hate to bring this up, but do you think I would have donated $200 to the site if I didn't basically like it? This is what I mean about ganging up. Regarding being honest about things, damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess. Maybe I just have no life nor free time to practice for "polished" performances, so this is my only outlet...

Quote:
Anything for you Joe, obviously. I'd gladly spend an hour or so of my free time to host your recordings. I'm too baffled by your unexpected volte-face to say no anyway.


Thanks again, and sorry that I'm such an unwelcome asshole.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:32 pm
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Location: Connecticut, USA
Quote:
I gave you very favorable comments--which went unacknowledged. Now I see from your comments that "generalizations" are "garbage", which must surely include praise as well. But it's your right to be dismissive. In future I'll reserve my time and comments for the work of other pianists here. Again thanks for the opportunity to hear your Chopin Preludes.


David,

I'm very sorry, I completely missed your post before. Yes, I prefer more specific comments, even about good things, but whatever, just my dumb limited opinion, for what it's worth. Thanks again for the comments and sorry about missing your post before.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:10 pm 
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Oh don't start being all reasonable about it now. You're no fun anymore :roll: :lol:

I'll put them up tonight and be done with this.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:11 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
To be honest, I don't think this is quite fair. In fact, I think I have commented on more of your recordings than you have of mine. I recorded on 3 or 4 of yours at the beginning (couple of Chopin, Granados, and maybe something else I can't remember) plus that recent video, and this is really only the second time you have ever commented on mine (first was the first Chopin prelude takes, though that was very brief). At least this is how I remember it.


Some of that is true - I don't like listening to whole sonatas or more than two or three files at a time. But when I do, I of course not only listen and comment, but then I get to spend precious personal time updating the site. I am sometimes overwhelmed and at times, I put up members' recordings without commenting - I just check that the file plays - that it ends correctly and stuff like that and if other members comment favorably enough, then I put it up. It takes a lot of time for me and Chris to do all this, and in my case I'm probably being selfish, but because we spend so much of our time on everybody else, then I think everybody else should spend time on us.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:24 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
I am sometimes overwhelmed and at times, I put up members' recordings without commenting - I just check that the file plays - that it ends correctly and stuff like that and if other members comment favorably enough, then I put it up.

Same here, I've long stopped trying to listen to all and everything that is submitted here, and don't take the time for everybody to follow with score and spell out the fine details. In many cases, a sanity check and some general comments will have to do.

pianolady wrote:
It takes a lot of time for me and Chris to do all this, and in my case I'm probably being selfish, but because we spend so much of our time on everybody else, then I think everybody else should spend time on us.

I am quite sure that people sometimes feel obliged to listen to, or even praise, our recordings just because we're the admins. I would rather not have it like that... but maybe a token comment is better than none at all.

As for the "I won't comment on your recordings if you don't comment on mine" game is not one I really like to play. But it is only natural that it happens that way sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:25 pm 
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Quote:
Oh don't start being all reasonable about it now. You're no fun anymore


Well at least I may help start some controversy. Maybe it's just me, but I think there's too much agreement in the world.

Quote:
I'll put them up tonight and be done with this.


Thanks, though I may need to re-upload the first 8.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:06 pm 
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They're up

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:48 pm
Posts: 1988
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Hi Joe,

If it was simply an oversight, I can understand that and accept your apology.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:34 pm 
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techneut wrote:
pianolady wrote:
It takes a lot of time for me and Chris to do all this, and in my case I'm probably being selfish, but because we spend so much of our time on everybody else, then I think everybody else should spend time on us.

I am quite sure that people sometimes feel obliged to listen to, or even praise, our recordings just because we're the admins. I would rather not have it like that... but maybe a token comment is better than none at all.

Usually when I comment it's on y'alls recordings, though I don't feel obligated to praise. My last comment on one of Monica's recordings was unappreciated, so I'm unsure how to comment on hers in the future, but usually you can handle whatever I say, which is why I comment on your recordings most often these days. I think it's because your personality is such that it doesn't bother you when I tell you what is on my mind. (Just like it doesn't bother me when you tell me what is on your mind.) And if you disagree with something I say you can blow it off and not get upset about it. Other than that I generally listen to the Chopin recordings, and sometimes Bach. Every now and then something different.

Joe, if you'd like to criticize my recordings, I put up some really awful ones from my senior recital on General - so feel free. :D

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