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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:38 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Sure, your comments are welcome and you can criticize at will. What I didn't appreciate about the posts above is that one made blanket statements about my "musicality" and my playing like an "engineer" without pointing to any real details and the other made outrageous assertions about tension that she could have no way of knowing, which I resent in two people who, at least these days, never (rarely?) post any recordings of their own to be criticized. And they phrase it as statements of fact. It's quite a bit different to be told that your rubato is erratic and exaggerated flat out and be told that someone doesn't agree with it. And god, to be told that I have tension in my hands, how absurd! Oh well, I basically admitted in my initial post that these aren't finished, but as good as I can get them for now. At least I tried... :roll:

Alternatively, you could have asked yourself if there might me some truth behind these thought-provoking statements, instead of huffing and puffing about it, demanding proof and details. I was going to write some comments similar to these but thought better of it. Personally I find it more constructive to take criticism to heart, and do something with it, than to balk against it. But ok, everybody is different.

Now just be clear about whether you want these on the site or not. It's is fine with me either way.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:51 pm 
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Quote:
Alternatively, you could have asked yourself if there might me some truth behind these thought-provoking statements, instead of huffing and puffing about it, demanding proof and details.


There may well be, but I will never know without the details or be able to apply a whit of it. Sad, really. In certain cases, you could also ask yourself why you don't like something. Perhaps it's because certain people play better than you.

Quote:
I was going to write some comments similar to these but thought better of it.


Of course you were. Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?

Quote:
Now just be clear about whether you want these on the site or not. It's is fine with me either way.


No thanks. No sense in putting something up that's generally perceived as unmusical.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before). After all, how can he deny that an auditor hears the effect of playing with a tense hand? It sounded tense to the listener, that's all there was to it, whether Joe accepted it or not - but of course he'll have nothing of it. His anger really surprises me. I wonder if some comments just cut "too close to home," recalling something someone more important to him than us also said?
:(

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:06 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
I was going to write some comments similar to these but thought better of it.


Of course you were. Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?

Sometimes one is reluctant to be the first one to say it. Not Chris, though...surely not. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:18 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before).

I admire your ability to do that. I have a very hard time dropping sweet comments on a recording when there are things about it that bother me. Even very nicely-played live performances like Rich's nocturnes, when the bothersome details are small and almost not worth worrying about (and a matter of opinion to boot).

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:22 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
There may well be, but I will never know without the details or be able to apply a whit of it. Sad, really. In certain cases, you could also ask yourself why you don't like something. Perhaps it's because certain people play better than you.

Ah shucks, millions of people play better than I do. I've no trouble admitting that. Then again, I play better than millions of people. That is what keeps me going.

jlr43 wrote:
Of course you were. Why come up with something new or original to say when you can just gang up and piggyback on others' ideas?

I usually do not read others' comments before listening to something, so as not to be biased. And I did not in this case, but decided right away against voicing certain reservations I had. Not that it matters much.

jlr43 wrote:
No thanks. No sense in putting something up that's generally perceived as unmusical.

Fine with me. Saves a lot of work :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:04 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before).

Same here. Some people have their interpretations all worked out, backed up by historical evidence, to the point there is no point in pointing out an alternative point of view.

Terez wrote:
Sometimes one is reluctant to be the first one to say it. Not Chris, though...surely not.

Surely not. But I do know when to shut up :)

Terez wrote:
I admire your ability to do that. I have a very hard time dropping sweet comments on a recording when there are things about it that bother me. Even very nicely-played live performances like Rich's nocturnes, when the bothersome details are small and almost not worth worrying about (and a matter of opinion to boot).

I understand that on one hand, and OTOH I don't. It is a bit sad if we can't muster any enthusiasm or words of encouragement because of some very minor flaws. I do believe we should be able to point out good things too, not just the bad things (I realize I'll have to put my money where my mouth is here). To Joe's credit, he usually does that when offering criticism.

Great discussion ! At last some life again in the old forum (thanks Joe). Pity I have to go to bed.... But something to look forward to for tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:15 pm 
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techneut wrote:
I understand that on one hand, and OTOH I don't. It is a bit sad if we can't muster any enthusiasm or words of encouragement because of some very minor flaws. I do believe we should be able to point out good things too, not just the bad things (I realize I'll have to put my money where my mouth is here).

I usually do point out the things I like. Sometimes, though, the only good thing I can come up with is 'you played most of the notes correctly', or perhaps something along the lines of 'A complete set! An accomplishment even if the performances are unconvincing.'

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Quote:
Having learned last time that Joe doesn't really want criticism, as he amply demonstrates repeatedly by rejecting every criticism and adding insulting or caustic characterizations and justifications for good measure, this is why I was short and sweet (before).


This claim is totally false. Please look back at the two previous Beethoven and Liszt recordings, as well as the initial Chopin/Scriabin, in which I accepted almost everything Chris, in particular, had to say and thanked people graciously for their comments, many of which were critical. They were specific, and I could use them to improve, and I tried to. I don't like generalizations; I think they're garbage made to think the reviewer is high and mighty and really the arbiter of taste and I'm human and take offense to that. There was really nothing specifically good that anyone could say about my preludes, and that means I failed or no one is even hearing a fraction of what I hear. Whatever. Also note that you willfully misconstrued my initialy argument with you, which was specifically about the fact that I gave Jana Marinova a less-than-glowing review when I had every right to and you questioned that right. It really had nothing to do with your criticisms, my opinion of which I kept silent until you asked me later. But you kept on thinking it did, no matter how many times I told you it didn't. No use talking to a stone wall.

Quote:
How can he deny that an auditor hears the effect of playing with a tense hand?


I can deny it because it logically makes no sense. Then say the effect was too tight or tense. There's no possible way that could be known about my physical hand. It's a rather personal statement and is, I can honestly say, completely false.

Quote:
His anger really surprises me. I wonder if some comments just cut "too close to home," recalling something someone more important to him than us also said?


Nope. I've taken criticism from countless people, teachers, parents, and classmates for years. I guess I just really don't relate to a group setting, where people are just too spineless to do anything except be titillated by agreeing with each other and ganging up on outsiders. I may go back to my former teacher, who did nothing but tear apart the performance details, not prattle on about arcane rhythmic divisions and pedagogy. It's always good to know how one is received in the wider world and now I have some sense of that, so thank you for that. I will leave you all with your pompous generalizing and idealizing about perfect Chopin interpretations and no longer infect any more with my obviously toxic and unwanted presence here.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:50 pm 
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Joe, if you leave now you won't be able to cut me to shreds when I submit in (hopefully within) 3-4 weeks, maybe sooner. You'll certainly want to stick around for that. :twisted: However, I have to echo Chris in remarking that your critiques per se of other's performances are by-and-large very fair and considered, even insightful sometimes (we musicians are all idiologues, after all). It's your replies to those who critique you that are just horrible. Look at some of the labels/adjectives you've used. It's simply childish.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:21 am 
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jlr43 wrote:
Nope. I've taken criticism from countless people, teachers, parents, and classmates for years.

It must have built up something inside you, is my guess. I can't explain your waspish reactions otherwise.

jlr43 wrote:
I guess I just really don't relate to a group setting, where people are just too spineless to do anything except be titillated by agreeing with each other and ganging up on outsiders.

Do I detect a hint of generalization here ?

jlr43 wrote:
I may go back to my former teacher, who did nothing but tear apart the performance details, not prattle on about arcane rhythmic divisions and pedagogy. It's always good to know how one is received in the wider world and now I have some sense of that, so thank you for that. I will leave you all with your pompous generalizing and idealizing about perfect Chopin interpretations and no longer infect any more with my obviously toxic and unwanted presence here.

Oh no please don't go :lol:

But if you can't bear with spineless pompous prattlers like us, it might indeed be best to try elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:43 am 
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I feel like I should apologize for 'ganging up', because honestly, I probably would have kept my comments to myself if George hadn't spelled them out first. I like George, but I wouldn't exactly say we're close, so have no fear that it's some sort of conspiracy. He just happened to say what was on my mind, and that encouraged me to post my thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:12 am 
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Terez wrote:
I feel like I should apologize for 'ganging up',

No, don't. There is no reason why we should be allowed to agree with each other over something.
It is rather paranoid to perceive that as 'ganging up'.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:21 am 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
I feel like I should apologize for 'ganging up',

No, don't. There is no reason why we should be allowed to agree with each other over something.
It is rather paranoid to perceive that as 'ganging up'.

Okay, then. I feel like I should at least acknowledge that I am a coward. Sometimes. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin - 24 Preludes, Op. 28 (Part I: 1-8)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Dear Joe,

I wish this didn't go all crazy like what has happened before. I was too busy yesterday to chime in, and frankly I was getting worn out just trying to keep with everybody so I couldn't make myself even bother to say anything. I'm trying to stay neutral through all this, but have to tell you that you brought this all on yourself. You have to remember that those here who commented had to invest a lot of their personal time listening to You play and then they took even more time to say some words about your playing. True, you don't always have to agree on everything - lots of times we all disagree. But to come back with such biting words has essentially ensured that no one will want to ever comment on your recordings again. And not only that, but I don't want outsiders to see what has happened here for fear that they will be too afraid to ever want to speak on our forum.

You are a very good pianist, but you need a softer manner when commenting here. Since you asked for my opinion on your Preludes - specifically your use of rubato, I'll tell you what I think. But if you bite my head off, then I'll....well...I dunno what, but I'll do something. :)

I only listened to the Preludes I like most which were 10, 12, 13, and 21. I think you played them all just fine and really have nothing to nitpick, except that on no. 21, the first part, the left hands sounds a little too 'notey' and could use a little more pedal. I've been accused of playing too 'notey' before in certain pieces too - and usually I like to be 'too notey' at times. You're probably happy playing this prelude this way too and it's not bad, but just could go a little smoother with a touch on the pedal and fit with the whole piece better.

Then I listened to nos. 4 and 6. No. 6 I think is fine. No.4 is another story. You start out fine, but then bar 12 - that lead-in to the second part is I feel too abrupt and jarring. From that point on, you get faster and faster and the whole part sound so angry! I thought this piece is supposed to be played 'lento' or 'largo' (not looking at the score now) throughout. Did you drop the LH octave in the middle? I did like that!

Well, that's it. Since you have not bothered to comment on most of my recordings, you will understand if I don't listen to the rest of your Preludes.

~Monica

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