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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:32 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Richard, is that the one that goes....(I'm singing) c,c,e,e,g,g,e - f,f,d,d,b,b,f - c,c,e,e,g,g,e - high c,c, f#, f# g - BANG!
I sort of think that one is funny. But mostly because I love to watch people jump when they are started!!



EDIT: btw, I think seduction is easy for me to relate to in music because it's the hands on the keys...that sort of thing. Also the emotions; sad, happy, relaxed, and melancholy are easy to feel in music. Just not humor, which isn't really an emotion, right? I'm not sure what you call it.


:shock: ! Indeed. It seems I actually have absolute pitch, because I have never seen it written out, but that is I began to play one day out of the blue on the recorder.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:43 pm 
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I'm sort of lost on what we're talking about now... :?

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:48 pm 
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It was an aside.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Can't even remember what this thread was about now ....

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Techneut wrote:
Quote:
It is my philosophy that for each thing you truly love, there must be some other thing you truly hate. Yin and Yang, so to speak :) It's just not possible IMO to love/like all music, and I question the musical taste of anybody who says they do.


Though there is something true about that "Yin and Yang-philosophy" I have to admit, that I like nearly all music may be except Hip-hop and rap, because there often are always the same rhythmic (and if there are, also melodical patterns). And from a moral view the texts often are too bad in my humble opinion.

Quote:
So I've listed my top ten of pet hates in no particular order.

Virtuoso violin music a la Paganini and Sarasate, with lots of sixths, octave doublings, and sul ponticello passages
Transcriptions for strange combinations of instruments, like recorder or saxophone quartet
Schubert works for male choir
Orchestrations of piano pieces (Ravel in particular)
Flute and harp music
Baroque opera
Mendelssohn string quartets
Fortepiano and other instruments that fill the gap between harpsichord and piano
Vivaldi (most of it)
Operetta (most of it)


I all like this music you mention here respective I have nothing against it. I have to admit, that I don´t understand your constrictions too much. As someone who has studied music and teaches it as a subject in school I try to be as open as possible. And that´s, of course, also my private attitude. I think also, in 21st century as true musicians that´s our duty! I also have to admit, that operettas are not my favorites, but, of course, I can also enjoy a "Fledermaus" or other operettas.

I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:33 am 
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musicusblau wrote:
From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


:lol: :lol: (sorry, Andreas, I can't help it...that just tickles my funny bone)

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:13 am 
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musicusblau wrote:
I all like this music you mention here respective I have nothing against it. I have to admit, that I don´t understand your constrictions too much. As someone who has studied music and teaches it as a subject in school I try to be as open as possible.
Of course I have not studied music - maybe that's my problem :P But I think I have as open a mind as anybody here, given the stuff that I play. I seem to love a more diverse array of music than many here. But I personally can't understand how people can say they like (nearly) all music. I agree that rap and hiphop are the absolute asshole of music, in fact not even worth the name music.

musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:
He was indeed quite a nasty little man. Though in all fairness he had many Jewish friends, and anti-semitism was very common in these days (and not just in Germany). I do immensely enjoy his overtures and incidental music (as long as there's no singers involved...). I think you should not let your appreciation of music be colored by knowledge about the composer's character or sympathies.

That reminds me how last year at an antiques fair we wanted to buy a porcelain drink beaker. The swastika and third reich standard on the bottom did not stop us from wanting it, it was really very pretty. It was much too expensive however. Pretty open-minded, eh....

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:17 pm 
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I thought this thread was about pets. I shall add some of my pet hates:

Accompanying.
Specifically, accompanying bad transcriptions of Handel arias.
Practicing scales. (I will probably flub the end of Chopin 25/11 long after I've mastered the rest.)
The vast majority of 'modern' music.
Beethoven's pianism.

I have more, but I figure that's enough for now. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:12 pm 
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techneut wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
I all like this music you mention here respective I have nothing against it. I have to admit, that I don´t understand your constrictions too much. As someone who has studied music and teaches it as a subject in school I try to be as open as possible.
Of course I have not studied music - maybe that's my problem :P But I think I have as open a mind as anybody here, given the stuff that I play. I seem to love a more diverse array of music than many here. But I personally can't understand how people can say they like (nearly) all music. I agree that rap and hiphop are the absolute asshole of music, in fact not even worth the name music.

musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:
He was indeed quite a nasty little man. Though in all fairness he had many Jewish friends, and anti-semitism was very common in these days (and not just in Germany). I do immensely enjoy his overtures and incidental music (as long as there's no singers involved...). I think you should not let your appreciation of music be colored by knowledge about the composer's character or sympathies.

That reminds me how last year at an antiques fair we wanted to buy a porcelain drink beaker. The swastika and third reich standard on the bottom did not stop us from wanting it, it was really very pretty. It was much too expensive however. Pretty open-minded, eh....


I remember studying at a school and one day, looking out at the terrace, we noticed the swastikas on the tiles. We asked how this came to pass only to hear that the whole building, terrace included, dated from the early 20th century.

We must remember that our view of antisemitism is coloured by 12 years of Nazi rule. Just because of what happened then does not mean that Wagner would have condoned it. The same way we nowadays may be anti-imigration without necessarily feeling immigrants ought to be fed to the sharks.

The other day. listening to Medelssohn, I was wondering: just how could he (or anyone else for that matter) hear semitic traits there? The same goes for Mahler.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Quote:
But I think I have as open a mind as anybody here, given the stuff that I play. I seem to love a more diverse array of music than many here.


Of course, you show us a great variety of different composers and piano music, I think, more than anyone else here on PS, and also of course, you shouldn´t read out of my remarks, that I wanted you to call not open minded, which was not my intention. I just said, that I personally don´t understand your constrictions too much, that means, that I don´t share them, but again of course, music is a personal matter of taste and everyone may have his/her resentments.

Quote:
But I personally can't understand how people can say they like (nearly) all music.


But I seem to be one of those strange people. :D

Quote:
I think you should not let your appreciation of music be colored by knowledge about the composer's character or sympathies.


That´s principally a right notion, but somehow you can´t really separate his music from his mind. Though I have to say, that I accredit his special musical achievement, of course. There is no doubt, that he has his place among important composers, who have created something important and special in music history. It´s evident f.ex., that with his chromatic progressions Wagner has perfected the tonal music in a certain way respective he brought it to a certain limit, and with that he opened ways for new developments in direction of modern music.


Quote:
That reminds me how last year at an antiques fair we wanted to buy a porcelain drink beaker. The swastika and third reich standard on the bottom did not stop us from wanting it, it was really very pretty. It was much too expensive however. Pretty open-minded, eh....


I also wouldn´t see a reason not to buy that porcelain drink beaker, if it was as pretty as you say, if you ask me. :)

Thank you for this exchange of thoughts, by the way, I really like to think about those matters and I think, my personal development is not finished concerning them.

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Last edited by musicusblau on Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Richard66 wrote:
Quote:
Just because of what happened then does not mean that Wagner would have condoned it.


That´s also a right notion, but in a certain way he has preworked for the Nazi-ideology.

Quote:
The other day. listening to Medelssohn, I was wondering: just how could he (or anyone else for that matter) hear semitic traits there?


But some of Wagners theses were directly and personal against Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy, he considered as an enemy. So, I´m not surprised Mendelssohn felt attacked.

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Last edited by musicusblau on Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:45 pm 
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musicusblau wrote:
That´s principally a right notion, but somehow you can´t really separate his music from his mind. Though I have to say, that I accredit his special musical achievement, of course. There is no doubt, that he has his place among important composers, who have created something important and special in music history. It´s evident f.ex., that with his chromatic progressions Wagner has perfected the tonal music in a certain way respective he brought it to a certain limit, and with that he opened ways for new developments in direction of modern music.

And even apart from his huge influence on other composers, some of his tunes, and the way he presents them, are just irresistible, at least to me. The Tannhauser and Meistersinger overtures, the Walkurenritte, the Siegfried Idyll - great music and pure genius, however much I dislike his wearing of silk underpants and his bottom-licking attitude with to his superiors.

musicusblau wrote:
I also wouldn´t see a reason not to buy that porcelain drink beaker, if it was as pretty as you say, if you ask me. :)

Many things from the Nazi period are just as aesthetically pleasing as anything else from that time, and I would not condemn them just because (but neither would I buy them just because). Actually I find some of Hitlers' paintings quite pretty (even though they are not great art by any standards), and would not hesitate buying one, provided it was not more expensive than the usual price I'd pay for an amateur painting :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:58 pm 
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I hear that Hitler was fond of Chopin. Of course, he might have just sought out the Jew-haters. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:10 pm 
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He was very fond of Wagner too, and very fond of his dog. You'd almost start to think he was halfway human ...

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:33 pm 
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Quote:
And even apart from his huge influence on other composers, some of his tunes, and the way he presents them, are just irresistible, at least to me. The Tannhauser and Meistersinger overtures, the Walkurenritte, the Siegfried Idyll - great music and pure genius,


I agree at hundred percent to that. But my favorite opera by Wagner is the "Parzival" and the best music he ever has written, is the motif of Parzival, "der reine Thor", which is in a pure and simple c-major. For me this is may be the only place Wagner has shown us, that there is a bit more than obscure ideology in his soul and mind. (As we know Parzival is a seeker of the Saint Grail, that means also he is seeking for God and the pureness.) But from that pureness Wagner seems not to have the faintest idea in most of his other works! :roll:
If you compare them with the oratorios by Mendelssohn, "Elias" and "Paulus" f.ex., I only can say, that - just judged from the music itself - in Wagner we have something like the devil and in Mendelssohn we have the pure angel. So, also the music seems to attest to the mind and character of their composers.

Quote:
Actually I find some of Hitlers' paintings quite pretty (even though they are not great art by any standards), and would not hesitate buying one, provided it was not more expensive than the usual price I'd pay for an amateur painting :


I see you are trying to separate the things themselves from the mind of their "creators" and I respect and appreciate that in a certain way! It´s an interesting point of view.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:04 pm 
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techneut wrote:
He was very fond of Wagner too

Well, everyone knows that. :wink:

Quote:
...and very fond of his dog.

That, I didn't know. But it's not surprising that an dictator would like a dog. If he had loved a cat, I'd be surprised.

(See, you managed to make it about pets after all.)

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:10 pm 
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Quote:
pianolady wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


:lol: :lol: (sorry, Andreas, I can't help it...that just tickles my funny bone)


The most funny thing is, that "Puky" is a label on the bycycle of my son (I suppose, it´s a name of brand or so), and Chris made me considerate to the meaning of that name in English :lol: . I somehow spontaneously thought, in the context of Wagners ideology this wordplay could be of an adequate use. :twisted: You see, I´m not only creative concerning music. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:24 am 
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musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


Das Judentum in der Musik is (from my second-hand understanding of it) a thoroughly nasty and vicious tract. It actually starts from quite an interesting position i.e. the comparative lack of significant Jewish composers at the time (Mendelssohn's family had I believe converted to Christianity when he was about nine, Alkan was prohibitively obscure and Wagner really didn't rate Meyerbeer). It suggests that Jewish insularity leads to creative sterility and, I believe, advocates self-annihilation and/or the abandonment of Jewish principles as the solution to this problem. It's not hard to see that the idea of the Holocaust could easily spring from a reading of this. Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:55 am 
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andrew wrote:
Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.
And his whiny-ass behavior and treatment of Liszt was deplorable!

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:09 am 
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andrew wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


Das Judentum in der Musik is (from my second-hand understanding of it) a thoroughly nasty and vicious tract. It actually starts from quite an interesting position i.e. the comparative lack of significant Jewish composers at the time (Mendelssohn's family had I believe converted to Christianity when he was about nine, Alkan was prohibitively obscure and Wagner really didn't rate Meyerbeer). It suggests that Jewish insularity leads to creative sterility and, I believe, advocates self-annihilation and/or the abandonment of Jewish principles as the solution to this problem. It's not hard to see that the idea of the Holocaust could easily spring from a reading of this. Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.


The ancient Hebrews were also not producers of art, the Bible and the Temple excepted.

Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:12 am 
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andrew wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
I personally have a problem with Wagners operas, especially his monographies "Oper und Drama" and "Das Judentum in der Musik" because he preworked antisemtical and nazi-tendencies here. (As a German, who tries to learn from history, I am especially sensibilized in this point, I suppose.) Wagner was an ideological man. From a human view he was someone like a "puky", that means a man, which causes one to puke! :!:


Das Judentum in der Musik is (from my second-hand understanding of it) a thoroughly nasty and vicious tract. It actually starts from quite an interesting position i.e. the comparative lack of significant Jewish composers at the time (Mendelssohn's family had I believe converted to Christianity when he was about nine, Alkan was prohibitively obscure and Wagner really didn't rate Meyerbeer). It suggests that Jewish insularity leads to creative sterility and, I believe, advocates self-annihilation and/or the abandonment of Jewish principles as the solution to this problem. It's not hard to see that the idea of the Holocaust could easily spring from a reading of this. Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.


I remember a book I once read (written in the 1930s, before the War) where there is a chapter called: The Monster and here a most obnoxious character is described. After one like him as much as much as the late Bin we are told it is Wagner who is being described.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:23 am 
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richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:24 am 
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pianolady wrote:
andrew wrote:
Wagner was a great composer, but a foul human being.
And his whiny-ass behavior and treatment of Liszt was deplorable!


Absolutely. It's very much to Liszt's credit that he put up with Wagner's incessant demands for money, etc, in the knowledge that subsidising his lifestyle would be for the greater artistic good.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:36 am 
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Terez wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:


Btw, I was told (by a Polish pianist friend) that history tends to avoid this point, but Chopin was part-Jewish.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Terez wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:


But he was half-French, so maybe he is worth only 2 Poles? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:10 pm 
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andrew wrote:
Terez wrote:
richard66 wrote:
Now, if we change the word Jewish and say, for example, Polish or Croatian, will we not end up having just the same number of great composers?

Chopin is worth at least three or four. :wink:


Btw, I was told (by a Polish pianist friend) that history tends to avoid this point, but Chopin was part-Jewish.


:shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:41 pm 
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andrew wrote:
Btw, I was told (by a Polish pianist friend) that history tends to avoid this point, but Chopin was part-Jewish.

Yeah, that's a rumor, but as far as we know, it's untrue. A few biographies address the rumor. I need to get this book so I can see how it was refuted. It's not that I care - I would actually think it pretty funny if he was part Jew, and Chopin himself was always referring to his nose - but I'm pretty sure it was just a rumor that somehow became accepted as truth. It might have been a Polish attempt to mitigate the things Chopin said about Jews.

richard wrote:
But he was half-French, so maybe he is worth only 2 Poles?

lol. There were also rumors that Chopin's French father was actually the bastard son of a visiting Polish aristocrat. It was really believable, since the province of Lorraine was overflowing with Poles at that time, exiles from some political trouble or another (I forget which). The local governor was a Pole. That's how Nicolas Chopin ended up moving to Poland; he traveled with the steward of the local count to Warsaw to find a job (and to escape the turmoil brewing in France). But unfortunately, that rumor was also addressed in the above book. Apparently bastards were quite common, to the point that a bastard child would be marked so on his baptismal certificate. Nicolas Chopin was apparently pure French. (Though now that I think about it, I somehow doubt that the bastard children were regularly borne by married mothers - that seems like it would have been less socially acceptable. So maybe Nicolas really was half-Polish - they say that he encouraged that rumor himself! - which would make Chopin 3/4 Polish. But recent biographers treat it as a soundly refuted rumor.)

And no one cares much about Chopin's French ancestry since he was raised in Poland and saw himself as a Pole. They say he spoke French (relatively) badly and with a harsh accent until his death.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:10 am 
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Back to pet hates...I was happy to see that Chopin had made the banner again, until I saw the Alberti bass.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Back to pet hates...I was happy to see that Chopin had made the banner again, until I saw the Alberti bass.


Complain, complain, complain.... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:24 pm 
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Some styles of classical music that I don't like listening to:

Solo Flute
Solo Violin
Harpsichord(for some reason, it just has a "dark" sound to me that is only partially covered up by lively pieces)
Attempts to re-interpret classical compositions with pop arrangements.
Modern classical music that is full of dissonance.
Bach played on banjo

Although I don't hate the stuff on the list, I would much rather hear other things.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:46 pm 
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In-Flight Piano wrote:
Some styles of classical music that I don't like listening to:

Solo Flute
Solo Violin

Even Bach?? :shock: :wink:

Quote:
Harpsichord(for some reason, it just has a "dark" sound to me that is only partially covered up by lively pieces)

That is so odd. I've always thought of it as overly bright.

Quote:
Attempts to re-interpret classical compositions with pop arrangements.

Agreed, though there are some rare exceptions where it's done well. And I like it the other way around quite a bit (though I think it's rare exceptions in both cases - most people suck at music)...I was sitting in the lobby of our music building one day, and one of our theory profs was leaving the building, all the while casting bemused looks in the direction of the room where a string quartet was rehearsing. He looked at me and said, 'That's the Stones.' It was - Paint it Black, actually - but his reaction makes me think that isn't done too often, which is a shame, because I'd really love to hear a string quartet play something like Welcome to the Jungle. I heard a saxophonist practicing in the concert hall the other night, playing AC/DC's Thunderstruck (the guitar part). I couldn't tell if he was gasping quick breaths or circle-breathing, but it was unbelievably virtuosic either way.

Quote:
Modern classical music that is full of dissonance.

Amen!

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:55 am 
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Terez wrote:
In-Flight Piano wrote:
Some styles of classical music that I don't like listening to:

Quote:
Attempts to re-interpret classical compositions with pop arrangements.

Agreed, though there are some rare exceptions where it's done well. And I like it the other way around quite a bit (though I think it's rare exceptions in both cases - most people suck at music)...I was sitting in the lobby of our music building one day, and one of our theory profs was leaving the building, all the while casting bemused looks in the direction of the room where a string quartet was rehearsing. He looked at me and said, 'That's the Stones.' It was - Paint it Black, actually - but his reaction makes me think that isn't done too often, which is a shame, because I'd really love to hear a string quartet play something like Welcome to the Jungle. I heard a saxophonist practicing in the concert hall the other night, playing AC/DC's Thunderstruck (the guitar part). I couldn't tell if he was gasping quick breaths or circle-breathing, but it was unbelievably virtuosic either way.

Quote:
Modern classical music that is full of dissonance.

Amen!


I once posted such an arrangement, which I made for the piano, on this site and it was not appreciated. If I remember, the reaction was, "I hope this is not the sort of stuff you will be posting."

I was thinking of dissonance the other day. there is a Lyric Piece by Grieg where there is a sequence of 24 bars (6/8) where there are 7ths and 2nds and yet one would not say the piece is full of dissonance. Maybe one should say "where dissonance is used to produce ugliness"?

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:17 am 
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richard66 wrote:
Maybe one should say "where dissonance is used to produce ugliness"?

To twist a well-known proverb: Ugliness is in the ear of the beholder! I admit it took some time before I started finding beauty in Schoenberg's music, but nowadays I even enjoy listening to Ligeti. These people weren't actually trying to sound ugly.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:21 pm 
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What Lyric Piece are you referring to?

And I actually found a little Schoenberg that I like to! Except I can't remember the name right now. It's something like 6 Little Pieces, or something like that (printed it out, but it's at home).

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:59 pm 
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I am referring to op 54/2, but of course that type of dissonance has since become a cliché.

As I mentioned earlier, Schoenberg is dreary to my ears, and I find little difference between his Peléas and Mélisande and his Moses and Aaron, but the Gurrelieder, them I like. I do however, recall enjoying a symphony by Einojuhani Rautavaara (What I name! aT first to remember it I had to think, "I know you honey!" :)) only to find out it is serial (but fortunately not a killer).

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:48 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
What Lyric Piece are you referring to?

And I actually found a little Schoenberg that I like to! Except I can't remember the name right now. It's something like 6 Little Pieces, or something like that (printed it out, but it's at home).


There is some Schoenberg that I don't mind such as the Verklaert Nacht, his early Chamber Symphony, and the String Quartet #4 at least. Of course the early stuff is before his serial stuff and to me has somewhat a sense of a late Mahler development section after it went over the tonal precipice. It could also be that over the years, movie music during tense, dramatic scenes often resembles Schoenberg and company so the sound is not as foreign as it once was.

I actually like the Penderecki "Threnody for the victims of Hiroshima", and that really can't be classified as much of anything but ugly. But its purpose was to convey the ugly aftermath of the nuclear bomb. I am also quite fond of the Berg Violin Concerto and the Rite of Spring.

To me, it is not so much the amount of dissonance, it is whether it is used with a purpose. I'm reminded of styles of jazz, not necessarily the wild modern modal stuff, but even ballads where everything is harmonized with some dissonance. The basic harmonic units of jazz are 7th chords (dissonant by nature, all containing a 7th or in in version a 2nd) with the addition of 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths. These dissonances actually give the lushness to the harmonies and we do not necesarily perceive them as "dissonant" (in fact they are often referred to a "tensions")

I'm reminded of some early level students when they run into certain dissonances for the first time. Particularly when they are practicing slowly, it comes out more. They first think that they have played something wrong. Then they try just that, playing louder and louder (I guess thinking that that will make it go away), and then decide that it is wrong. Over the years, I have learned to point these things out on new pieces. I show them that when it is in context at the tempo that we will play that it works. I have them try it out and listen to the sound of the "clash" (and then with the resolution) so they can get used to it and then tell them that if when they practice they don't hear that "clash" then they are playing it wrong.

I'm not sure that art is necessarily intended to always be beautiful. It should be thought provoking and interesting. There is some art in which there is aesthetic "beauty" in the ugliness portrayed. Some of Goya's etchings come to mind where he portrayed ugly scenes about war and did nothing to "beautify" the image.

That of course does not mean that I do not enjoy beautiful art.

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:45 am 
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I agree that not all dissonance is bad. The Fugue in b minor from WTC1 has lots of dissonance, but this is my favorite piece of music ever. This is not the ugly kind.

The kind of dissonance that I don't like, is the kind in Lowell Liebermann's Three Impromptus, Op.68.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:59 am 
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RSPI11 wrote:
I'm not sure that art is necessarily intended to always be beautiful. It should be thought provoking and interesting. There is some art in which there is aesthetic "beauty" in the ugliness portrayed. Some of Goya's etchings come to mind where he portrayed ugly scenes about war and did nothing to "beautify" the image.

Preciesely! I used to teach a year-long course in cultural history that approached the arts in chronological fashion. Each style is best appreciated in the novelty that it presented to the times then current, and in the context of the cultural history. To best appreciate the atonal school, one must come to understand the frustration that composers had arrived at with tertian harmony. They felt (wrongly) that they had scaled all its potential, and so abandoned building taller sky scrapers (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th chords) and changed the whole alphabet from tertian harmony to secondal (Bartok), quartal/quintal (Debussy), removed the sign-posts along the roads of scales (whole-tone), liberated symmetry, rhythm and tessituras (Stravinsky), emancipated tonality (Schoenberg), drew on cultural influences (Nationalism), finally (?) going so far as to be overwelmed by mathematics and phasing (E. Carter and others) and even the abandonment of artistic creativity and self itself (Cage and the aleatoric composers). The musique concrete movement at least tried to find other-than-musical sound and manipulate it into sounds never before heard or imagined on planet Earth. The series of wars and atrocities in the 20th century went a long way in stimulating artists everywhere in evey medium.

@Monica: you have the title correct (in English, though)

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:11 am 
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In-Flight piano wrote:
I agree that not all dissonance is bad.

I like to equate musical dissonance with spices in culinary arts. Who in there right mind would pick up an onion and start eating it like an apple? Or pop a clove of garlic into the mouth like a grape? Or put a spoonful of salt, pepper or horseradish in their mouth like a tablespoon of honey? Yuck! Yet who wants to eat food without all of these "ugly" "foul" ingrediants? Not me. Likewise, we need these dissonances to "flavor" our music. Certainly all do not have the same taste for foods, or music. It has taken me a good few decades to appreciate blue cheese, but I love VERY HOT flavors, yet I care nothing for radish. So it is with music, it takes significant understanding to appreciate the "untasty" works. ... but thank God for Rachmaninoff (an out-of-style anachronism) anyway!

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:47 am 
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RSPIll wrote:
I'm not sure that art is necessarily intended to always be beautiful. It should be thought provoking and interesting. There is some art in which there is aesthetic "beauty" in the ugliness portrayed. Some of Goya's etchings come to mind where he portrayed ugly scenes about war and did nothing to "beautify" the image.

Interesting. I was reading something the other day, I can't remember where, arguing that the notion of artists as our "social conscience", that literature, music, painting can be provocative and challenging, is relatively new. They were saying that artists of all sorts used to be more like craftsmen, serving rather than critiquing society, and the transition from craftsmanship to individualism took place during the 19th century. Goya was indeed named as a pioneer of this new attitude. I think the chronology is a bit off (Mozart toyed with librettos that brushed against the fence of censorship, and challenged the musical conventions of his time in some interesting ways), but I agree with the main point. Nowadays it seems essential that at least some new art should be provocative.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:50 am 
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hanysz wrote:
Nowadays it seems essential that at least some new art should be provocative.


Here's the thing. There has never been a composer who always stuck with conventions. The way I see it is, there is a difference between being creative and being provocative. Creativity does not have to shock anybody or be way out of form. Its just a clever, controlled excursion from the norm.

Even Bach, who is often seen as the epitome of Baroque musical conventions, sometimes pushed the boundaries of the Baroque period with occasionally peculiar chords and rhythms. But it's all subtle creativity to hold your attention and keep you from losing interest, but not enough to shock.


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:43 am 
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hanysz wrote:
RSPIll wrote:
I'm not sure that art is necessarily intended to always be beautiful. It should be thought provoking and interesting. There is some art in which there is aesthetic "beauty" in the ugliness portrayed. Some of Goya's etchings come to mind where he portrayed ugly scenes about war and did nothing to "beautify" the image.


Interesting. I was reading something the other day, I can't remember where, arguing that the notion of artists as our "social conscience", that literature, music, painting can be provocative and challenging, is relatively new. They were saying that artists of all sorts used to be more like craftsmen, serving rather than critiquing society, and the transition from craftsmanship to individualism took place during the 19th century. Goya was indeed named as a pioneer of this new attitude. I think the chronology is a bit off (Mozart toyed with librettos that brushed against the fence of censorship, and challenged the musical conventions of his time in some interesting ways), but I agree with the main point. Nowadays it seems essential that at least some new art should be provocative.


When I was thinking of those Goya etchings, I wasn't even thinking (or remembering) when he lived. I checked it out and he was actually born 10 years before Mozart. Though the artist as social conscience attitude was identified with Goya and that time period, it could have had its inception before that time, as you touch upon about Mozart's choice of some of his librettos and the manner in which he wrote the music for them. Had Mozart lived, might he have evolved in a similar direction? Was there something in the 18th cent. enlightenment air that was leading artists in that direction by the early 19th cent.?

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:42 pm 
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I must say when I come across a piece of "art" that is shocking, agressive, ugly and provocative, my reaction is to look elsewhere. It does not provoke me: it merely disgusts me. We have the press to shock us, to show us people being killed or whatnot. Must art also do it? To what avail? We need art to relax, not to shock us. Somehow I do not like being slapped on the face and having my nose rubbed in the mud.

One of the reasons why I find myself enjoying music more and more, moving away from novels and the cinema, is that, as an abstact art, the only truly abstact one, is that it is pefectly possible to enjoy oneself without having people fighling, stripping, killing or yelling **** words. I have enough of this just opening my window in the morning without wishing to have more.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:40 am 
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A different kind of 'hate' but I just have to get something off my chest:

I hate when people say "enjoy" when they are submitting a recording. It's like they assume/think their playing is so great and that we are so fortunate because we get to listen to their great recording.... :roll: :roll:

I wish members would stop that!!

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:41 am 
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Quote:
I hate when people say "enjoy" when they are submitting a recording. It's like they assume/think their playing is so great and that we are so fortunate because we get to listen to their great recording
To disrupt the self-indulgence in such posts, one should state instead, "Not bad, for Jerry's kids." :P I may have said that about me on an occasion. Hey, those who can't laugh at themselves, leave the job to others! Reminds me of the Polaner All-Fruit commercial years ago - at a formal formal table, the guy blurts out in a twang, "Could you please pass the jelly." The lady of residence almost passes out in disgust over the faux pas. :P

Hates:
Erik Satie - Gymnopedie in particular. The most over-rated composer of all time! There is more music contained in 30 measures of rests.
WCRB - Our only classical station. Daily broadcasts contain some of most innocuous music ever written. I have to switch to CDs in the office - even the patients complain about the selection of music on the station.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:12 am 
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pianolady wrote:
I hate when people say "enjoy" when they are submitting a recording. It's like they assume/think their playing is so great and that we are so fortunate because we get to listen to their great recording.... :roll: :roll:

I think I've written that on occasion. But it was really a hope that people would enjoy the music (which would have been new to the site), not my playing per se - which would have been adequate at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:51 am 
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pianolady wrote:
I hate when people say "enjoy" when they are submitting a recording.

Oops, guilty as charged, sorry.

But seriously, why post anything if noone's going to enjoy listening? Either the performance is good enough that it's musically enjoyable to listen to, or else people can enjoy picking on the faults...but if there's nothing to enjoy, then we're wasting our time.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:08 am 
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When one submits a recording one hopes it will be enjoyed, but when one is asking others to judge it, it is not appropriate to say in so many words: "This is very good what I am playing and you are going to like it!"

Now, imagine at a piano competition, one of the participiants tells the jurors, "Enjoy my performance!"

I would be surprised if this competitor would even be allowed to play.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Ok, I feel better now.... :lol:

@George - try an internet classical radio station. I listen to one all the time while I'm at work (except right now I've got classic rock playing). Here is one I use most:

http://www.accuradio.com/


You can choose many different genres and even specify particular instruments. There is a short commercial every now and then but it lasts only about 5 seconds.

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 Post subject: Re: Pet hates
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:11 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Ok, I feel better now.... :lol:

@George - try an internet classical radio station. I listen to one all the time while I'm at work (except right now I've got classic rock playing). Here is one I use most:

http://www.accuradio.com/


You can choose many different genres and even specify particular instruments. There is a short commercial every now and then but it lasts only about 5 seconds.

Just added to Favorites! :D Thanks Monica.

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