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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:03 am 
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Location: Stockholm
After one and half year I am back on a half step. I would like to say sorry, I apologise. I can say sorry but in certain causes it is very hard. The one and half year I was thinking about this everything here and I was looking at the icon of this site in my bookmarks. I wanted to apologise but the other side of me did not wanted to show that I had lost on all of the lines. I am able to apologise, to say sorry, but I am not able to loose. I knew it had been very stupid from me. Sorry. Hope it will be forgiven sometimes in the future or at least forgotten.

Sending named apologies to Mr. Andreas Pfaul

Have a nice time.

/B

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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:28 am 
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Hey Bohumir,

Thanks for writing this. I have always enjoyed your sensitive recordings, and I would be sad to see you join the list of those to disappear from PS.

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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:35 am 
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I appreciate you checking back in to apologize, after reconsidering the argument for a sufficiently long time. Apologizing seems to be extremely difficult for you - why is that ? Let me guess... some people are just more talented, proud and stubborn than others.

Anyway, we can leave all that behind if you are sincere about this. In that case, welcome back. We'll see if we get into the same kind of discussion again. I hope not (though I have to admit it is quite amusing :P )

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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:53 pm 
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Posts: 2815
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sejra wrote:
Quote:
After one and half year I am back on a half step. I would like to say sorry, I apologise. I can say sorry but in certain causes it is very hard. The one and half year I was thinking about this everything here and I was looking at the icon of this site in my bookmarks. I wanted to apologise but the other side of me did not wanted to show that I had lost on all of the lines. I am able to apologise, to say sorry, but I am not able to loose. I knew it had been very stupid from me. Sorry. Hope it will be forgiven sometimes in the future or at least forgotten.

Sending named apologies to Mr. Andreas Pfaul


Now, after nearly 14 days after you have written this I have seen these lines by pure hazard. So, I ask me, why haven´t you written me a pm?
But now I see this hazardly I will give you my answer: it is not forgotten, of course, but it is forgiven!
Thank you for your apologies and welcome back to PS!

As Chris wrote I hope, we will not get into the same kind of discussions again!

techneut wrote:
Quote:
We'll see if we get into the same kind of discussion again. I hope not (though I have to admit it is quite amusing )


I do know things, which are more amusing, Chris. :?

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:13 pm 
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Location: Brazil
sejra wrote:
Why I post so much recordings here. Because I thought it would be a good idea to have a profile here on pianosociety web. It's page which I can show to some contacts etc. So that I need there good pick of recordings.

it was said here that PS should focus on music, and not on people's behavior. well... I disagree.

this website is maintained by two people in their free time. it allows free webhosting for pianists, as long as their recordings are submitted to the audition room and approved. it also subsists due to donation and the goodwill of the community.

IDEALLY, it should only focus on music. but considering the whole thing, it's quite annoying for mainly professional pianists who arrive here, deposit their recordings and disappear forever. PianoSociety DOESN'T WORK FOR HIRE! it's not here to SERVE the pianists! it's quite unfair that pianists take advantage of it, the free hard work of the moderators, and don't even care for them or the community!

I think in the past PS should beg for recordings. now it is more popular and has a lot of them, and one more of Chopin is not its ultimate need. the conclusion is: it's quite in the moderators' (or the community's) right to allow or disallow someone for extra musical reasons, even astrological reasons!

by the way, this is a wonderful performance! it is completely satisfying and I have nothing to complain about.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:34 pm 
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felipesarro wrote:
I think in the past PS should beg for recordings. now it is more popular and has a lot of them, and one more of Chopin is not its ultimate need. the conclusion is: it's quite in the moderators' (or the community's) right to allow or disallow someone for extra musical reasons, even astrological reasons!

Ideally, we should be objective enough to base that decision on musical reasons alone. I think mostly we are. But it can be hard.... Sometimes, we just choose to ignore someone who rubs us (and the other PS members) the wrong way. In such a case, it does not matter one bit whether the repertoire is common or not, or whether it's a splendid performance or not. For better or worse, this is a community and people should learn to behave and fit in - same as it is in the big bad world out there.

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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:32 pm 
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Thanks, Felipe. I'm glad you said all that. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:11 am 
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felipesarro wrote:
sejra wrote:
Why I post so much recordings here. Because I thought it would be a good idea to have a profile here on pianosociety web. It's page which I can show to some contacts etc. So that I need there good pick of recordings.

it was said here that PS should focus on music, and not on people's behavior. well... I disagree.

this website is maintained by two people in their free time. it allows free webhosting for pianists, as long as their recordings are submitted to the audition room and approved. it also subsists due to donation and the goodwill of the community.

IDEALLY, it should only focus on music. but considering the whole thing, it's quite annoying for mainly professional pianists who arrive here, deposit their recordings and disappear forever. PianoSociety DOESN'T WORK FOR HIRE! it's not here to SERVE the pianists! it's quite unfair that pianists take advantage of it, the free hard work of the moderators, and don't even care for them or the community!




Hello Felipe,

Indeed, looking at the amount of recordings and list of the artists one can see there is no shortage, on the other hand, it is quite interesting to see that MOST of them not actively posting and let's face it, the traffic on this particular board is extremely slow. Definitely, I would not blame it all on those artists and definitely there is some kind of explanation. I am afraid, the free work of moderators would not be the one--I've been on different discussion boards (from piano related, to purely technical and pro-audio stuff) for many years, and ALWAYS the moderators work for free and this is their free choice.

After a year being on this board, as I see it, something what can be a a strong point here can also be a biggest weakness. That sense of community is always a sword with two edges and inevitably tastes of the community starts dominating the forum, both musically and personally. If somebody even little bit different, then that person is automatically just does not get accepted. Only a certain circle of people with certain manners, certain ideas/way of talking and thinking can get inside. I am not saying it is bad, but it definitely limits the forum outreach. If that's the goal of the board and it wants to exist in a little, warm, and fuzzy circle of close friends then it is fine, otherwise I believe there should be at least a consciousness of those shortcomings.

Another reason, it is actually quite amazing to see, without exceptions all the interesting, or more or less interesting discussions immediately get dropped. I personally posted quite a few youtube recordings from J. Hoffmann to G. Gould, which are in my view are pinnacles of piano performance. Guess what, none of them got even one single response!

There is no one single topic (let alone serious discussion) on the aesthetics of pianism, performance, or composer. The only single serious constructive discussion on technique I can see is an excellent topic opened by Musical-MD, but it does not seem to be popular, either.

Sorry to say Felipe, if you mentioned professional pianists, I hardly could see any of them trying to get through this wall and it is very unfortunate to see them as you rightly put it, depositing the recording and go. Clearly, one cannot put entire blame on them.


techneut wrote:
felipesarro wrote:
I think in the past PS should beg for recordings. now it is more popular and has a lot of them, and one more of Chopin is not its ultimate need. the conclusion is: it's quite in the moderators' (or the community's) right to allow or disallow someone for extra musical reasons, even astrological reasons!

Ideally, we should be objective enough to base that decision on musical reasons alone. I think mostly we are. But it can be hard.... Sometimes, we just choose to ignore someone who rubs us (and the other PS members) the wrong way. In such a case, it does not matter one bit whether the repertoire is common or not, or whether it's a splendid performance or not. For better or worse, this is a community and people should learn to behave and fit in - same as it is in the big bad world out there.


Ah, then it explains the reason why even if authorities chose to stop by my recordings threads, then it is mostly with irrelevant, or out of topic comments.

On the other hand, I can see perfectly well how my persona does not fit in the community, so no surprises here.

Best, M

P.S. Sorry for out of topic rant, but most of this thread does not belong to the topic opened by OP, anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:51 pm 
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Marik wrote:
Ah, then it explains the reason why even if authorities chose to stop by my recordings threads, then it is mostly with irrelevant, or out of topic comments.

On the other hand, I can see perfectly well how my persona does not fit in the community, so no surprises here.

If you feel like PS and you are maybe not an ideal match, there could be some truth to that... I am not in the mood to argue with you about this, or anything else you wrote.

At least you've found one or two people here with whom you can converse on your own level. That's good, or else PS would be a boring place for you.

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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:56 pm 
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Location: Stockholm
Musicusblau: I have not writen you any pm because before the "conversation" went on the opened forum. And also, this is a thing which touches whole comunity.

And to the new topic of this OT. I know my position here and I should not put some more wood to the fire. But...
I have to say that both sides has their own truths. Of course, it is not possible to focus only on the music. It would be so easy and also, it could be done only with robots. We are people so except music we are also feeling personalities - even thru text. That's nothing new.

I know that all of the moderators works here for free (fortunatelly they don't put so much of their own money to PS as before thanks to many donations...). It is going to be strange now, prepare yourself. When I was maybe 16 or 17, it was the "bull's age" (maybe my "bull's age" is forever). I had a computer, internet and a online RPG game. Thanks to circumstances I got myself to a work of gamemaster on a czech free server. I was there almost every day, sometimes just 15 minutes, sometimes 4 hours. It was not a playing. It was helping to another players, scripting, repairing mistakes in database and banning stupid cheaters. Sometimes it was very boring. But I was doing that for free - 100% for free. Why? Because I liked that I am not useless, people knew me and liked me. What would I like to say? It is your choice to do it for free. If you want money, you can put here some more commercials. But don't attack professionals, don't attack 1-minute commers which sometimes can post a really good recording. It is their own choice that they don't read the gold in the another topics (not only Audition room) and they don't want to talk more... To be honest, PS stands at half-proffesional recordings. Without them it would be much less than it is. PS, as a complex, IS here to SERVE the pianists. If the PS doesn't serve the pianists, it would be no comunity, no recordings, no PS. And the name wouldn't be Piano Society because it would not be a society. Don't take this so hard, please! I am not trying to make some more fire. I know exactly how you feel and what you would like to say by your words. I am just trying to dress it a little bit.

I am not a professional but I am trying to do something with my quite unprofessional state. Today the life of a musicial is quite hard. Musicians are in a bad situation. If they don't have a really fantastic teacher with plenty of contact and a good heart or they are not fenomenal, they just stop with playing or they go to teach. Some of them are trying do something with that and they are looking thru whole internet. And they come here... That's the first idea to post here a recording. They do what they should do and they go away. One really good thing which has been told me by the best teacher I have ever had: EVERYBODY IS DOING THE BEST - ALWAYS. People can't be angry on them! It is one's own decision to just post recordings. I know I have been doing that too - oh, it is quote of Felipe from one and half year before. Now I feel stupid for that :-(. What should I say more about my previous behaviour?

Quote:
this is a community and people should learn to behave and fit in - same as it is in the big bad world out there.

That's extremelly nicely writen and it is true. +1

Please, don't shoot to Marik! Marik, you are an interresting intelligent guy and I like what you have writen because there is plenty of slightly hidden (as I can see from the reactions) truth. You mented the classical problem of comunity but it is nothing to do with that. :-) The rest I have already writen.

What I would really repeat from your topic... No interrest of great recordings from youtube, no topics about deeper problems of the piano playing - usually the maximum problem is right notes - in the bar 56 you play D intead of D-flat. think that lack of conversations about "working" on pieces is a big problem and even if people here are connected, they are depriving of more progress. My friend, a trombonist, told me a nice truth: "The best is to come to as many courses as possible. You have to come, quickly hoover as biggest amount of information as possible and leave. If you will do it more than the others, you will know more and you will make a bigger progress." But it is not possible to want from somebody who is just relaxing during the piano playing to change and start to learn from everybody. Or.. One has to want oneselfs! This is a fan fun forum. So, in order to close this.. I would say... I agree with you 100% but we are not at a piano masterclass. We are at a forum of people which are happy that they can be happy with the instrument.
But I really like you approach which is more professional.

I really hope that I haven't increased the fire and the rightful small reluctance against me. I don't want to touch anybody, just would like to shape the things above.

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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:49 pm 
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Posts: 916
Location: Brazil
sejra wrote:
Of course, it is not possible to focus only on the music. It would be so easy and also, it could be done only with robots.

Analyzing a recording is no easy thing, and I don't know how a robot could do that.

sejra wrote:
But I was doing that for free - 100% for free. Why? Because I liked that I am not useless, people knew me and liked me. What would I like to say? It is your choice to do it for free. If you want money, you can put here some more commercials.

Simple: if they are overloaded, they quit and PS disappears. That's the point. If we like PS, we depend on them, so we should at least treat them with respect.

sejra wrote:
But don't attack professionals, don't attack 1-minute commers which sometimes can post a really good recording. It is their own choice that they don't read the gold in the another topics (not only Audition room) and they don't want to talk more...

And it is PS' choice to accept their recordings or not.
And who is attacking the professionals? People from PS complained that they wanted more interaction in the community, and that the moderators are not servers in a pub! Only this.

sejra wrote:
PS, as a complex, IS here to SERVE the pianists.

No. It is here to serve the listeners. It's written in the main page. "For you, as a Piano Society visitor and listener, this means endless hours of listening for free, which we hope will bring you a lot of pleasure and joy. "
That's the main thing.

sejra wrote:
EVERYBODY IS DOING THE BEST - ALWAYS. People can't be angry on them! It is one's own decision to just post recordings. I know I have been doing that too - oh, it is quote of Felipe from one and half year before.

I said that in quite a different situation.
It doesn't seem that serial killers are doing their best and therefore we can't be angry with them.
Or maybe we shouldn't be angry with them otherwise they kill ourselves! That's true.

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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:10 pm 
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Hello Bohumir (what a beautiful name! Is it Czech, or has some other roots?),

Speaking of community, there is another problem very often hidden from many eyes, which is a cultural differences. I understand you are Czech, right? Having lived in a few different countries I can say people from Europe are much more straight in what and how they say, or express and very often it can be a problem.

Heck! I can tell you, MOST of American students would never take or accept the way professors of Moscow Conservatory were talking to the students. On the other hand, we were more than happy because we knew that this is because they cared about us! That was much worse if the professor was nice and polite to you--not a good sign--time to find another teacher!

This is certainly a factor on ANY forum, and the smaller the community, the bigger the problem. Unfortunately, the life is such thing that this is us who need to tune to the community and usually, in response no any community will ever take this step, or take the blame.
Indeed! It is so much easier just to get offended and reject the individual rather than take responsibility! This is just how any community or society works, whether it is a street gang, circle of 7 graders, or entire country.

I however, have to disagree with the position of your trombonist-friend. While on the surface it sounds like an attractive idea to take all you can and run and seemingly you will learn more, in reality, it is not the case. People seem much happier and learn much more when in fact, they rather GIVE, esp. when they give unconditionally. There is a wonderful book by Russian philosofer V. Soloviev called "The Great Rosenkreizer". I am not sure if it was translated, but in a wonderful way it describes two friends going through their lives, each respectively following one of those paths I wrote about. The ending of the book is quite amazing!

I personally, came to this board not to promote myself, but to offer people help with what I know (both musical and with recording). I understand, some people might not like my ideas, others chose ignore them, or yet others find them irritating. But if even one person can find them helpful and one day they spark interest; even if one single person would suddenly see the things from another angle, I already will be much happier person!

Many people helped me in this life and I don't know a better way to repay and express my gratitude than trying to give it back to others. I believe there is a good chance that with giving, one might learn much, much more... if not get some formal knowledge, then at least receive knowledge about life and yourself. Since those are inseparable part of music and piano performance I am sure those experiences will make anybody much better pianist and just happier human being!

Best, M


Last edited by Marik on Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Location: Stockholm
Marik: I don't have what to write more than Thank you.

Best wishes to you. Btw, where are you from? Yes, I am from the Czech republic but nowdays I live more in Sweden.

Felipe: Ok, I think we both have some of the thruth. But as I can see it is starting to be once again kind of a struggle. So let's stop this conversation...

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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:28 pm 
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Thanks for chipping in Felipe. I am glad someone here can see things our way. You have some good points there - though I'm not sure about the serial killer analogy. These guys can be extremely charming and educated, look at Hannibal Lecter :)

More serious now - I've been doing this work since 2005, and I still believe in the original mandate of PS, which is to serve both the listeners and the pianists. I have to say though that we get more positive feedback from the listeners than from most pianists... What we are more or less being told here, by Bohumir and Marik, is to take our responsibility and stop moaning because we are doing this of our own free will. That we are morally obliged to cater for each and everyone whether we like them or not, and that rather than pointing out peoples' read mistakes we should engage in lofty discussions about the merits of historic pianists, the aesthetics of performance, and what not. I don't quite know what some people expect here, and why ! This is what you get for hanging out with a bunch of amateurs ! (with apologies to those here who are professionally trained)

I feel I could rant on for years now... sorry but all this riles me a bit to be honest. It all had to come out one day. After some 5-6 years of doing the grunt work, together with Monica I hasten to add (and often she did most of the grunt work), I'd be more than happy to leave it to someone else. Having a family and a day job, time is not unlimited and I would much prefer practicing the piano to being every other pianists's obedient servant, and then being taken to task for having an opinion on that. Anybody out there up for it ? I guess not. Everybody is too busy doing their own stuff. So will I be, for quite some time, once we manage to sell our house and move. It may be nice to take a rain check.

That's it for now. To those who don't like PS the way it is, I say take it or leave it. Or, take your responsibility and join up as an admin.

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 Post subject: Re: F. Chopin - Ballade no.3, A flat major
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:12 am 
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So Chris, let's have a look at the chain of events.

First,

You stop by my Chopin Ballade no.4 thread with unrelated and OT comments (which BTW, would be much more appropriate, say for PM) and then leave for good with no any comment on the topic. After that I open this particular thread (I will comment on the Bohumir's recording later, when I will be able to listen to it) and learn that it is actually, customary here to ignore members. Considering how demonstrative you were visiting my thread, one does not have to be a genius to connect it with "ignore list". And after that you are talking about community?!!!

What a subtle way of saying you are on a black list and being ignored (not that I even care for the reason)! What a wonderful message about sense of "community" and "brotherhood", esp. when it is coming from a moderator!!!

Maybe others will find it perfectly fine, love it as it is, and believe there is no right to complain as moderators "work too hard for free", I however, do not appreciate it and find rather condescending and insulting.

Second:

techneut wrote:


What we are more or less being told here, by Bohumir and Marik, is to take our responsibility and stop moaning because we are doing this of our own free will. That we are morally obliged to cater for each and everyone whether we like them or not, and that rather than pointing out peoples' read mistakes we should engage in lofty discussions about the merits of historic pianists, the aesthetics of performance, and what not. I don't quite know what some people expect here, and why ! This is what you get for hanging out with a bunch of amateurs ! (with apologies to those here who are professionally trained)


I cannot talk for Bohumir, but this is either that 1) I was not clear enough with what I was saying, 2) You misread what I was saying. Either one does not really matter.

Somehow, I believe I can express my humble opinion and (please note, after reading your comment about "ignore" button), I merely provided specific answers to specific statement that most of the professional pianists don't stay on the board--not more, not less. I was stating obvious facts as they are, and I am sorry if you see it as complaining, or critisizing, mocking my words.

This is your choice and up to you, Chris, to either a) get defensive, disregard the fact and pretend there was no problem, or b) all of us resolve it as adults and move forward, whichever you prefer.

Thank you for listening and understanding,

Best wishes, M


Last edited by Marik on Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:42 am, edited 26 times in total.

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