Piano Society
Free Classical Keyboard Recordings
It is currently Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:04 pm

All times are UTC - 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 86 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:14 pm 
Dear piano friends,

i've got a question. I'm exercising the Chopin etudes at the moment. I would like to ask you, if there's a best way to bring the particular etudes in a better order to learn them more efficiantly ? I know it depends on the individual situation of every piano player. But, does a kind of "common sense" exist between piano educationalists ?
THX for your answers in advance ! :wink:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
IMO, the most logical order for ANY pianist to take in learning Chopin études is to begin with the ones that are easiest for you. You can figure that out by sight-reading through all of them (highly recommended) and getting a feel for their difficulty relative to your comfort zones, or you can take the word of everyone else on which ones are easiest (purely relative term when dealing with those two sets). The easier études will polish the techniques you were already somewhat comfortable with, and then you can move on to techniques you have a bit more difficulty with, saving the most challenging for last.

Learning them in the order they're published probably makes the least sense of any order you could choose.

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:17 pm
Posts: 418
Location: Boston
Quote:
does a kind of "common sense" exist between piano educationalists?


Voltaire said "Common sense is the least common of all." With that in mind, "Easy" is relative term - the etudes that seem easier technically are more difficult musically, and vice versa. The perceived difficulty of the etudes varies among different individuals, depending on your agility, strength, and span. I am not sure if there is a consensus among the conservatory level members for the etudes, but all I know is that you should first learn several of the Preludes, before tackling the etudes. More or less, here are the Etudes in order of increasing difficulty (for my hands):

-Op. 25, No. 9 in G-flat Major, "Butterfly"
-Op. 10, No. 9 in F minor
-Op. 10, No. 3 in E Major
-Op. 10, No. 5 in G-flat Major, "Black-Key"
-Op. 25, No. 1 in A-flat Major, "Aeolian"
-Op. 10, No. 12 in C minor, "Revolutionary"
-Op. 10, No. 1 in C Major
-Op. 25, No. 7 in C-sharp minor
-Op. 25, No. 12 in C minor, "Ocean"
-Op. 10, No. 4 in C-sharp minor

You may know this already, just remember to move your arm across to guide you to reach any arpeggios, and develop a relaxed and flexible shoulder. Otherwise = tendonitis + anti-inflammatory drugs or worse...

May the Force be with you when playing Chopin Etudes!

_________________
"Nobility of spirit has more to do with simplicity than ostentation, wisdom rather than wealth, commitment rather than ambition." ~Riccardo Muti


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
Hmm, everybody forgets about the 10/6 in E-flat minor. That's the easiest by far.

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:34 pm
Posts: 1278
Terez wrote:
Hmm, everybody forgets about the 10/6 in E-flat minor. That's the easiest by far.


Perhaps from a technical standpoint, but take a pianist who isn't so strong of a music reader and this etude turns into a morass of accidentals! :lol:

Abby Whiteside wrote some good stuff on the Chopin Etudes; you should look her up.

Pete


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:34 pm
Posts: 1278
beachdude wrote:
Dear piano friends,

i've got a question. I'm exercising the Chopin etudes at the moment. I would like to ask you, if there's a best way to bring the particular etudes in a better order to learn them more efficiantly ? I know it depends on the individual situation of every piano player. But, does a kind of "common sense" exist between piano educationalists ?
THX for your answers in advance ! :wink:


I strongly suggest thoroughly learning the Preludes, before venturing to the etudes! I don't mean to have all of opus 28 note perfect and world-class level; just make sure you've put in the necessary time (a few years, IMO) to have reasonably mastered the Preludes.

After you've done that, it should be abundantly clear as to the order in which to learn the Etudes. Also, they will be FAR easier on your playing mechanism than if you jump in cold-turkey.

Do you play the Preludes?

Pete


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
PJF wrote:
Terez wrote:
Hmm, everybody forgets about the 10/6 in E-flat minor. That's the easiest by far.


Perhaps from a technical standpoint, but take a pianist who isn't so strong of a music reader and this etude turns into a morass of accidentals! :lol:

Sure, but the 10/4 was on that list, and the middle section of that is hardly easy reading (I always have to look at the keys more than the page in that section or I get confused, lol). I love it when Chopin modulates to enharmonic keys via accidentals. :lol:

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:30 pm
Posts: 5
I think the most difficult Chopin etude is Op. 25/6. Just HELL.

-Mikhail Kaykov


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:14 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9551
Location: Netherlands
Megabump ! It makes little sense to reply to a 15-month old posting. The original poster is no longer even here, presumably removed from the forum as his/her username is Anonymous.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
I found 25/6 to be easier than many. And hush Chris; there's no such thing as an outdated discussion on Chopin etudes. :wink: (Says the girl who shows up after having been absent a few months herself.)

I am working on 25/11 now; my teacher insists it's the hardest of all the etudes, but I disagree. I think 25/12 is more difficult simply because the technique is so consistent and tiring. 25/11 changes technique every four bars or so, to the variety makes it easier for me to play without tension. I had the same problem with 25/1 as I had with 25/12.

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
88man wrote:
More or less, here are the Etudes in order of increasing difficulty (for my hands):

-Op. 25, No. 9 in G-flat Major, "Butterfly"
-Op. 10, No. 9 in F minor
-Op. 10, No. 3 in E Major
-Op. 10, No. 5 in G-flat Major, "Black-Key"
-Op. 25, No. 1 in A-flat Major, "Aeolian"
-Op. 10, No. 12 in C minor, "Revolutionary"
-Op. 10, No. 1 in C Major
-Op. 25, No. 7 in C-sharp minor
-Op. 25, No. 12 in C minor, "Ocean"
-Op. 10, No. 4 in C-sharp minor


The more I look at this list, the more strange it seems to me. And I know that 88man was speaking of his hands specifically, but it still seems strange. This is roughly how I would order them, from easiest to most difficult, for my hands (leaving out a few I have not played enough to judge):

10/6 - E-flat minor
25/7 - C-sharp minor (cello)
10/5 - G-flat major (black keys)
25/9 - G-flat major (butterfly)
10/3 - E major
25/10 - B minor (octaves)
10/12 - C minor (revolutionary)
10/7 - C major (repeated notes)
10/9 - F minor (wide left hand!)
10/8 - F major (LH melody, RH runs)
25/1 - A-flat major (aeolian harp)
10/1 - C major (RH arpeggios)
25/6 - G-sharp minor (thirds)
10/2 - A minor (chromatic)
25/11 - A minor (winter wind)
25/12 - C minor (ocean)
25/4 - A minor (LH jumps from hell)
10/4 - C-sharp minor
10/11 - E-flat major (ROLLS! BIG, KEYBOARD-SPANNING ROLLS IN BOTH HANDS.)

I left out 10/10, 25/2, 25/3, 25/8, and 25/5.

(Edited because I realized I mixed up 10/4 and 25/4 - also I moved 10/2 and 25/6 up the list since I haven't gotten either to performance tempo and others think they are very difficult.)

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Last edited by Terez on Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:43 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Tobyhanna, PA
In no way is the Revolutionary more difficult than the Harp.

25/9
10/6
10/3
10/12
10/9
10/5
12/1
25/1
25/11

That's all I've studied of them thus far, and the last two I didn't finish (yet).

I can't picture one part of the Revolutionary that should take more than a day or two to understand. It's all rudiments and stamina... The middle? I learned all but the middle in a week, and give or take another week and half for the middle section with clean transitions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 1418
Location: Gulfport, MS, USA
I am also working on 25/1 and 25/11 right now...I just played 25/1 for a jury but it needs some improvement, and I think I might play it for a coming recital. I also might play 25/ 10-12 instead, but I am reluctant to put anything at all on the program after 25/11. When you play Chopin etudes in a group, no one claps until they're all done, and it would just be too weird to play 25/11 without applause. :lol:

But you think 25/9 is easier than 10/6? Really? I think 10/6 is the easiest by far, to the point where it wouldn't matter what sort of technically difficulties are easy for the individual pianist. Yes, it has some difficulties, but they're really not comparable to anything else in either 10 or 25.

Also, by 12/1 I guess you meant 10/1. I would think it's harder than 25/1, but I've never really worked on 10/1 so I couldn't say.

_________________
"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:43 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Tobyhanna, PA
Maybe it's just my problems with grace notes, but (yes, I meant 10/1) I found 25/1 to be a real difficulty. The butterfly is a matter of figuring out the chord progression, and the pattern is all there for you. Meh, I don't know any pianists at my school (which is by far, NOT a school of music - 13 majors, 50+ minors, I was the only piano major that graduated in 2k7) that doesn't know it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:17 pm
Posts: 418
Location: Boston
Terez wrote:
Quote:
The more I look at this list, the more strange it seems to me. And I know that 88man was speaking of his hands specifically, but it still seems strange. This is roughly how I would order them, from easiest to most difficult, for my hands...
Hi Terez, I bet I've been away from PS longer than you have?! :lol: The original poster was asking if there was an academic order of difficulty for the etudes. My list was a recollection of the chronology in which I learned the Etudes when taking lessons during high school and early college. I just looked back at 20 year old recital programs to compare the chronology of Etudes among 3 different pupils, and the list seems more or less consistent... Ah, memory lane :) I only listed the one's I learned, and I haven't learned any new since college when I stopped taking lessons, so it's not a complete list as yours...

You must be having so much fun learning 25/11...... NOT! :P They say it's the most devilish to play. I don't envy you having to learn all these etudes, but I can respect you for taking on the challenge of doing so. I looked over your list, I would place 10/2 Am and 25/6 G#m in the most difficult category for my hands. Wow! You must have very agile fingers?... 25/12 and 25/1 are not difficult once you start learning them, it's just an endurance issue. Pssst: Finger push ups help! :wink: But, if your piano's action is stiff, you may run out of steam fast. Playing these etudes you have to be both a good sprinter and a good marathon runner.

BTW, why don't you post any recordings of this great repertoire?... I'd love to hear more Chopin Etudes on PS...

_________________
"Nobility of spirit has more to do with simplicity than ostentation, wisdom rather than wealth, commitment rather than ambition." ~Riccardo Muti


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 86 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group