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 Post subject: Liszt - Consolation I (re-take)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:46 pm 
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Hi guys, thanks for your first round of feedback. I redid this last night. This time with (hopefully) correct rthyhm and atmosphere. Reckon you will give me a pass grade this time?


Last edited by johnmar78 on Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:19 pm 
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First, I like those consolations, and as teenager played the No. 1 and No. 6. I would not leave out No. 6, if you long for the others too, because it sounds soooo great!

To your take on No. 1: I am wondering why you don't play in metrum (beside the rit. in the middle and end). You play the half notes slow and the following quarters fast (that means much faster than doubling). Don't throw paper balls on me, but really, check with metronome. If you decide afterwards to add a rubato here and there, that is fine and another thing. To me, it sounds more randomly in rhythm that way. Also, it really does not sound like "dolce".

So, I niggled much, and did not hear any mistake! My critique is only regarding rhythm and expression. It will not take much time for you, since the difficulty is not really high and you play otherwise really difficult pieces. You wrote as subject "Liszt consoldation". I thought first on "consolidation", and after that on "consolation". Ok, just a little joke...

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:07 pm 
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Indeed there are little or no wrong notes here. But this is marred (sorry, pun not intended :wink: ) by some strange moments. The sudden silences between phrases, the random (and, I guess, involuntary) tempo changes, the dry and detached playing in places. This is a typical work from Liszt's devout catholic period, and it needs to invoke a church-like atmosphere to make it work. I don't feel that atmosphere here.
At a steady tempo, and with properly connecting pedal, this would be already be a lot better.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:32 pm 
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if it was steady and with a bit more pedal it would be a nice recording

gr,

robert

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:47 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Indeed there are little or no wrong notes here. But this is marred (sorry, pun not intended :wink: ) by some strange moments. The sudden silences between phrases, the random (and, I guess, involuntary) tempo changes, the dry and detached playing in places. This is a typical work from Liszt's devout catholic period, and it needs to invoke a church-like atmosphere to make it work. I don't feel that atmosphere here.
At a steady tempo, and with properly connecting pedal, this would be already be a lot better.


You right here, no wrong notes...I paid lots of attention there. so whats next/?? more accurate rhythm?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:24 pm 
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Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
Darnit! Why am I always the last to hear submissions? Now I can't comment on it because all the ideas have been taken! grrrr :roll:

johnmar78 wrote:
so whats next??


The ideas have been laid down by previous replies, my two cents (and to beat a dead horse) is that you should do whatever it takes in order not to submit a marred recording. :P :x Accuracy in church-like pieces is essential; accuracy in tempo and in dynamics. Pretend that this piece is played for the procession of a mass, what would happen if you would to play to fast and then suddenly slow down? The procession would look like 5:00pm on the Chicago highway--stop---go---stop---go---slow down---speed up---stop---freeze!

Hope this helps.

-Mr. Bored-out-of-his-mind.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:32 pm 
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Thansk Jufaman
no woories. more takes is underway this WEEK. Try to keep a steady traffic right
This is my first attempt to play liszt works. Of cource, I forgot to mention the no.6.

Play this seriously...as in the Catholic Church.

No2 is a pain to sight read.... can I borrow your eyes Chris... it seems four eyes arenot enough?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:00 am 
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Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
johnmar78 wrote:
Play this seriously...as in the Catholic Church.


well don't play with too much of a serious tone. These are not pieces for church but these were composed during Liszt's religious years. I still believe that you should play with emotion but a grown-up stern emotion, not sad and full of tears because my girlfriend dumped me- emotion. But with an emotion of placidity to honor the better things in life.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:43 am 
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Successful interpretation of Liszt's Consolations demands a religioso atmosphere. Console me.

One liners aside, I think maybe the solution lies in how the different levers of the playing mechanism are utilized, the speed of the motions used and more importantly, the character of the performer's emotions.

The interossei (the muscles of the palm that move the individual fingers) and the long flexors of the forearm must be fixated just to the point of keeping the wrist level during the keystroke. The fingers are used passively; the whole upper arm/forearm/wrist/hand/finger unit must move in unison. When done correctly, it will look as though you are almost completely still. Ten percent wrist stroke, ten percent whole-arm stroke and eighy percent forearm stroke is how I think of it; your exact motions will differ. Substitute motion for tension. The movements should be very slow, natural and fluid. You could take the dynamics down a couple of notches, too. Also, use the pedal to enable legatos that are otherwise impossible.

Chris hit on a critical issue; this piece was composed by a devout Catholic Liszt; that fact must be considered as its primary motivation. In your performance, there was one distinct moment when the religious atmosphere was created; the last two bars. Go back and listen to the end, you played it with this sense of reverence that would fit the whole of the piece beautifully. Do it that way.

Pierre


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:42 am 
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thanks PFJ, last two bars..ok, I should pay more attention to my interpretation.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:48 am 
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When it comes to easier piece like this, we expect more and as others have said before, the dolce atmosphere is not really there. The reason is that you should apply a more liberal use of the sustain pedal and play it rhytmically steady but still very relaxed. Should not be too hard for you to apply. Do you have any professional recording to compare with?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:24 am 
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techneut wrote:
This is a typical work from Liszt's devout catholic period, and it needs to invoke a church-like atmosphere to make it work. I don't feel that atmosphere here.


Very interesting to me, I never heard of that before.
Those Consolations were published in 1849 according to my score, and after a german article the sketches for that can be traced back to 1845. I am not familiar with Liszt's vita, but wasn't his devout catholic period much later?
Beside this, indeed I can imagine a church-like atmosphere, more artificial reverb may serve as substitute. And a steady slow groove of course, together with a sonore tone ...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:53 am 
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MindenBlues wrote:
Very interesting to me, I never heard of that before.
Those Consolations were published in 1849 according to my score, and after a german article the sketches for that can be traced back to 1845. I am not familiar with Liszt's vita, but wasn't his devout catholic period much later?

Good point.... You are probably right, and I would do good to check facts before posting smart-ass statements like this :oops:

Anyway it does not really change the message. I guess Liszt must have had a strong catholic streak long before he became Abbe, and it surely comes out very strongly here.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:50 pm 
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Guys, and good evening to Chris....
have a listen to my re take last night. I am doing it right this time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:36 pm 
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Sorry I'm late. (Juufa, you beat me. And I know that Chicago highway)

Johnmar, I listened to your first recording of this but didn't have time to respond. Just listened to this second version and think it is much better. The rhythm and notes all sounded accurate to me. A couple small things - Maybe it can go a teeny, tiny bit slower? It sounds almost rushed. And on the last measure, I didn't hear the low e ring out because I think you released the pedal after you hit it. I could be wrong about that - as it could be just my speakers. Good job overall.

To whomever is interested - There's a little commentary written on the top of the first page of my edition that says this:

Inspired by the Consolations of Sainte-Beuve (1804-1869), Liszt offers us this small cameo which wants to be played delicately and without complication. It may also be performed as an introduction to the next one, proceeding without pause. It evokes sensitive visions of the interior of the soul, remembrances of the past.

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