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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:21 am 
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Terez wrote:
alf wrote:
This confirms a huge and often overlooked truth about piano technique - once you've understood the right movements to make, many technical problems magically disappear or got reduced.


I'm guessing you're talking about the general advantages to the bouncing technique. I've come across similar situations in Bach before, where a simple matter of articulation solved many technical difficulties.


Nope, mine is a very general observation. Above, Teddy explains very well what I meant.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:17 am 
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Terez wrote:
Teddy wrote:
On another note, this is another perfect example why implicit polyrhythm notation is an horrible idea that should disappear alltogether from written piano music. After a quick glance at the sheet parts you've given here Terez, I also assumed it was 4 / 3, not just 2+1 / 1+1+1.


Well, it has disappeared for the most part, but in cases like these where the performance practice is not so clear from what Bach wrote, most people would still prefer to have what Bach wrote.


Exactly. Nowadays, conventional notation is quite straightforward and when it is not, the modern composer clearly explains new symbols or anyway what differs from common practice. As to the music of the past, it's not up to the editors to tell the performer how to play! A good edition should just make every effort to improve the readability of the musical text and give explanations about every questionable editorial decision, not take decisions in the performer's place.

Moreover, in Bach's time, there wasn't ONE performance practice ragarding rhytmic notation. For instance, Emanuel Bach aligned the 16th to the last note of the triplet, Quantz didn't. To add confusion to an already difficult matter, sometimes (not always) in Bach's autographs there is a graphical alignment among triplets and dotted rhythms. And lastly, during his life, Bach may have changed mind about rhythmic notation. There are a lot of things we don't know and cannot figure out.

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Alfonso Bertazzi, amateur pianist.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:23 am 
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Terez wrote:
but I'm not sure what you're talking about with Chopin.


The final section of the Polonaise-Fantaisie, or the Prelude Op.28/9.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:29 am 
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Teddy wrote:
Anyways on topic, all the hand / wrist / arms movement are at least as important as the fingering you use ; not only do they dictate a certain phrasing, they also are crucial in both the dynamics you can use (most of the time a bad posture will force you to dwarf or exagerate your dynamics) and the stamina you use, which can be a determining factor sometimes. They also all work together ; a bad wrist position will prevent you from using an indicated fingering, and while trying to use that indicated fingering with bad wrist posture will lead to injury, careful thinking on that spot will allow you to understand the wrist position the composer wants you to use. It is especially frequent with Chopin for instance, fingerings that seem absurds but that will force you into using a different angle in your play, often permitting better speed or dynamics.

I totally have those moments too when after a while practicing, I just get "that" movement and it becomes soooo much easier, like having an epiphany. They also become part of your "muscle memory" or whatever it is called, allowing you to use that technique with easy when it is needed.


Very well said. As a poorly educated pianist, I often and avidly watch (especially on YT) great pianists in action to "steal" fingerings and movements.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:36 pm 
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alf wrote:
Terez wrote:
but I'm not sure what you're talking about with Chopin.


The final section of the Polonaise-Fantaisie, or the Prelude Op.28/9.

Well, I'm not intimately familiar with the Polonaise-Fantasie (one of the few Chopin pieces I can say that about, lol) but I can't think of anything in 28/9 that is written differently than it is intended to be played.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:41 am 
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Terez wrote:
alf wrote:
Terez wrote:
but I'm not sure what you're talking about with Chopin.


The final section of the Polonaise-Fantaisie, or the Prelude Op.28/9.

Well, I'm not intimately familiar with the Polonaise-Fantasie (one of the few Chopin pieces I can say that about, lol) but I can't think of anything in 28/9 that is written differently than it is intended to be played.


Thisis a good starting point (see also at the end of page 298).

Even the new PWM/Ekier Chopin Edition says that the 16ths should be played together with the last triplet notes. On the other hand, when Chopin wants you to play them after the last triplet note (at the end of the Prelude), he writes double dots.

By the way, I am not aware of 1/4 + 1/8 triplets in binary meter till the second half of the XIX century. That kind of rhythmic notation is not just Baroque stuff, but well into the Classical and Romantic period.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:34 pm 
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Interesting. I don't believe I've ever heard it played that way...but then, I haven't exactly listened to a great number of recordings of it.

I've also heard it mentioned that the same applies to Schubert, but that's the only example I can think of that I've heard of 'understood' practices in post-baroque music, not counting jazz swing.

One thing I do wonder, though, is if Bach wrote the 16ths aligned with the last note of the triplet, or it he wrote them as they're printed in my copy. I imagine he aligned them correctly, and they were un-aligned upon printing?

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:22 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Interesting. I don't believe I've ever heard it played that way...but then, I haven't exactly listened to a great number of recordings of it.


It's not your fault. I know 2-3 dozen different interpretations of the Preludes and only 1 pianist goes that way (it's Pollini, of course). Great pianists are often lazy. :wink:

I'll scan the PWM commentary about that issue.

Quote:
One thing I do wonder, though, is if Bach wrote the 16ths aligned with the last note of the triplet, or it he wrote them as they're printed in my copy. I imagine he aligned them correctly, and they were un-aligned upon printing?


Sometimes they were aligned, sometimes not (especially in autograph drafts). But what really propagated that misconception was the first editions (in both Bach's and Chopin's case).

EDIT: added attachment with the PWM commentary about that rhythmical issue (FE is the French Edition, GE the German one).

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"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking" - Anonymous

Alfonso Bertazzi, amateur pianist.


Last edited by alf on Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:23 am 
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This particular ornament in the same gavotte (e minor partita) has been giving me trouble:

Image

Now, I've just listened to GG play it on YouTube (that measure is at about 5:40), and I have a different recording on my iTunes, and on both recordings, he doesn't play that ornament at all. Every other recording I found had the ornament, not counting a horrible harpsichord version that was from an old-ish black and white film. I wonder if he had some sort of justification for not playing it or if he just decided he didn't like it.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:41 am 
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Terez wrote:
This particular ornament in the same gavotte (e minor partita) has been giving me trouble:

Image

Now, I've just listened to GG play it on YouTube (that measure is at about 5:40), and I have a different recording on my iTunes, and on both recordings, he doesn't play that ornament at all. Every other recording I found had the ornament, not counting a horrible harpsichord version that was from an old-ish black and white film. I wonder if he had some sort of justification for not playing it or if he just decided he didn't like it.


Gould was far from being obsessed with HIP.
But you should if your teachers want you to be that way. :P

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Alfonso Bertazzi, amateur pianist.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:37 am 
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What is HIP?

And my teacher tells me all the time that if an ornament is bugging me too much I should cheat on it, not because she has no faith in me but because she is of the opinion that you shouldn't spend too much time worrying about something small. I'm happy with my persistence, though - even that crazy double ornament in the gigue is coming along!

Also, I think I have finally broken serious ground on the toccata. That fugue is...challenging. But I have started practicing the exposition of the fugue with the subject hand staying stationary through the ornamented part:

Image

For instance, the first ornament in the LH played with 3-4, the next with 2-3, the next with 1-2. Then in the RH, the first ornament played with 3-2, the next with 4-3, and the next (which you can't see) with 5-4. It seems convoluted probably, but if I can't play the exposition like that, then I can't play this fugue, because all of those ornament fingerings are required throughout the fugue, usually with other voices in the same hand. If I can't play the exposition like that, with no complications, then I can't hope to play the rest of it properly.

Prattling on here, because I am so LD when it comes to piano technique, and I get excited when I make some progress. :lol:

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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