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 Post subject: Problem with a measure in Chopin's Op. 44
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:36 am 
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Most of what I have learned so far has fallen under my hands easily. But there's one measure that's really been getting me. I was wondering if any of you had any advice on how to master it. I can play either hand's part by itself, but I cannot put them together to save my life! :oops:

I've attached a screenshot of the specific measure, and one of the bar in which it falls. Please note that I do not use the Klindworth edition for a study score; this is just an easy way to illustrate the measure.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:21 pm 
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I took this excerpt to the piano and played it through a couple of times. Indeed, it's tricky! :roll: I suspect the main difficulty is with that sixteenth-note E-flat octave, C-grace note, and C-octave (RH) group? I found it easier to play the C-grace note with the thumb instead of the third finger. And I believe you have to play the grace note before the beat, so that the C-rolled octave and the rolled chord below it are rolled at the same time. The three notes or octaves end up following each other in rapid succession.

I know I'm probably not saying anything you don't already know, but I hope it's helpful in solving your problem. Getting "blocks" when you're in the middle of a piece you've otherwise nailed is absolutely no fun!

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Though everything else may appear shallow and repulsive, even the smallest task in music is so absorbing, and carries us so far away from town, country, earth, and all worldly things, that it is truly a blessed gift of God.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Thanks, I'll try your suggestions when I practice today. The problem is putting the two hand's parts together. Hopefully I can make some headway on it now... :D

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:27 pm 
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Things like this are where the Chopin rubato comes in handy - so long as your left hand keeps the tempo, the right hand doesn't have to be exactly as it's written. :lol: But to get as close as possible (or even exact, though that's a bit boring), I suggest slow and soft and a lightweight, floating hand, until it comes to feel natural. There are similar spots in various Chopin thingies, and this method of practice works best for me.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:52 pm 
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Thanks, Terez, I'll keep that in mind. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:30 am 
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Yeah, I know...not really all that helpful, eh? :lol: I have one measure (25/7 m. 26) that's giving me grief at the moment as well. Measures like yours, I don't have so much of a problem with, but this one is annoying me. :evil:

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:45 am 
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Oh, no. I'm still HS, but the floating hand idea allowed me to play the LH rolls much more fluidly. :)

What's your measure look like?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:39 pm 
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EDIT: okay, here 'tis - the measure that's vexing me is the one on the middle line, and the LH trill going into it, but I figured I'd give context:

Image

I haven't even decided which fingers to use for the trill yet. I'm leaning towards 1-3 now, with 1 on the B and 3 on the C# (this score agrees with that, but IIRC my Mikuli edition does not - edit, I checked, and Mikuli doesn't even suggest a fingering there. So I guess it's a good sign that the fingering I was leaning toward was suggested by someone :lol:).

When I originally began working on this piece, I figured that other measures would give me more trouble than this one (for instance, that measure on the 3rd line), but no...it's this one.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


Last edited by Terez on Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:01 pm 
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AHEM - yeah, that measure looks like a real pain in the neck. :roll:

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Though everything else may appear shallow and repulsive, even the smallest task in music is so absorbing, and carries us so far away from town, country, earth, and all worldly things, that it is truly a blessed gift of God.

Felix Mendelssohn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:13 pm 
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Yeah, well - it's probably not as painful as it looks, actually. :lol:

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:33 pm 
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1-3??? B and C# respectively? LH? :shock: I don't see how that could possibly work. Wouldn't it be the other way around, with 1 on C# and 3 on B? I'd say that measure calls for lots of slow practice. What exactly is vexing you about this measure? ;)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:41 pm 
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Well, having my thumb on the black key just doesn't seem to work. And it's possible - only takes a slight curving of the wrist and bending under of the thumb to make it comfortable (try it!) - and after having tried several finger combinations, that one seems to be the most comfortable.

I suppose what is vexing me the most about the measure is the back-and-forth aspect of it, and the changing note values. And you're right - it will just take a lot of slow practice to make it happen.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:54 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Well, having my thumb on the black key just doesn't seem to work. And it's possible - only takes a slight curving of the wrist and bending under of the thumb to make it comfortable (try it!) - and after having tried several finger combinations, that one seems to be the most comfortable.

I suppose what is vexing me the most about the measure is the back-and-forth aspect of it, and the changing note values. And you're right - it will just take a lot of slow practice to make it happen.


I'll try it in a bit. ;) Dang, it must be hard with all those differing note values. I'd almost rather have a continuous polyrhythm like the Fantaisie-Impromptu, but I'm sure it can be mastered. :D Do you practice HS? I always isolate big runs immediately when I start a piece and learn them first. Quite a few of them in Op. 44, too. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Watch this video of Valentina Lisitsa playing this Etude. Might be a good hand shot at the point you are having trouble. BTW, she has a lot of great vids in HQ and even HD on her channel. 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRrduXWh0Ag

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:08 pm 
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Terez wrote:

I haven't even decided which fingers to use for the trill yet. I'm leaning towards 1-3 now, with 1 on the B and 3 on the C# (this score agrees with that,


Terez, I suspect that the fingering there is for a trill that starts with the main note (which is probably wrong, since in Chopin trills usually start with the upper note), in fact just before the trill there is a "2" on the B.

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