Piano Society
Free Classical Keyboard Recordings
It is currently Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:14 pm

All times are UTC - 1 hour




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am
Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
My God. I just listened to your playing......I busted and laugh really loud to myself about your playing....(sorry I shouldnt laug Are you a commedian??) ...my tears are coming out of my eyes while i am writing this..


Its either your 1)piano is out of tune or
2) you delibrate to skip a key to a higher key....wrong melody without interupting...but it really funny to make a comic version of op10/1.

3) because of above 1 and 2) it made me laugh????

SLOW PRACTICE AS PETE SAID. Now I did 2.42 its pretty cool and nice and clear. The profeesinal playing around 1.45 to 2.25.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:30 am 
8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Clarity Sake and Answer to questions


1) Was it a joke

http://www.dasdc.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7582

People avoided it simply because of the name

2) Practice time

Practiced this piece an hour a day when self was first learning it and usually had three or more hours to practice. Now practice sessions are about 1-2 hours but self doesnt practice every day so the average practice session is around 20 minutes of practice :wink:

3) Piano out of tune

F@#$ yeah, it was tuned only days after the recording was made

4) The score

Every note is memorized,

no need for it,

a near perfect peformance can be rendered at a slower tempo

these wrong notes are a combination of lack of maintainance for this speed, the recorder lack of frequency variation, and bad tuning

then there also the experimental factor

wasnt actually planning on posting it

found out how funny it sounded with a hint of clarity and posted it

5) Z speed

Self can play it faster but since self has not mastered the middle section it fall apart completely there

EVERY SINGLE TIME

3 bars determine the quality of the entire performance

then there is the endurance factor


6) the tech

self has almost overcome the habit of excess finger motion, but the problem lies in determining where to draw the line.

Too much fingers equals pain

too little fingers equals loss of clarity at certain points

combined with - there are section where it seems finger motion is needed

and the transfer from no finger to finger results in tension

----

Then there is the question of the body

does it remain almost in place

or does one allow it to flow upward with the hand


then there is the wrist

self has notice that when the hand it angled slightly downward (regardless of whether one uses high or low wrist)

in this position, movements that require the fingers to be raised are easier and produce less tension

while movement that require rotation become harder to produce



-----

Examine mister horowitz.

One would believe his playing would be very painful

but self believe it to be the that his hands are angle downward compared to his forearm which enabled him to play in the form he did

and he doesnt seem to play with only his fingers as people say

he leans in most of the time he plays

----

but self diverges

and this is probably not the right subforum for a discussion on technique :mrgreen:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:29 am
Posts: 692
Location: Germany
Robot, first it sounds so that have the technique to play the Chopin 10/1 in that tempo. Your tone is ok too, at least what can be heard from the (bad) recording quality. It also not sounded rushed to me.

It only degrades so because of the numberless wrong notes. If it would be an unknown piece and nobody would have the score, but so...
No need to quantify whether there are 50% or 1% wrong notes. They are simply too much.

Take the critiques here positive, work on the wrong notes and post anytime a recording with better sound quality and all notes there and all will be happy. The good message is, technical wise you are able to manage the thing!!!

_________________
Olaf Schmidt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:53 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9489
Location: Netherlands
Quote:
The good message is, technical wise you are able to manage the thing!!!

That may be so, but don't underestimate the effort and the technical skill involved to get the notes right as well as the general feeling. It is comparatively easy to play a difficult work with great panache but in an approximate way. It seems to me there is something like a 80-20 rule at work here : Getting 80% of the notes right is only 20% of the whole effort. It's in the remaining 20% (well, in reality hopefully 15% or 18%) that 80% of the sweat will go. Not that I've ever got that far, hehe :lol:

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:29 am
Posts: 692
Location: Germany
Quote:
Quote:
The good message is, technical wise you are able to manage the thing!!!

That may be so, but don't underestimate the effort and the technical skill involved to get the notes right as well as the general feeling. It is comparatively easy to play a difficult work with great panache but in an approximate way. It seems to me there is something like a 80-20 rule at work here : Getting 80% of the notes right is only 20% of the whole effort. It's in the remaining 20% (well, in reality hopefully 15% or 18%) that 80% of the sweat will go. Not that I've ever got that far, hehe :lol:


I disagree regarding the general feeling: I think the general feeling IS there in the recording. Is there really technical skill necessary to hit the right instead wrong notes? Ok, if the wrong notes are easier to access, then maybe. Patience and true honesty, and faithful reading the score are needed, but technical skill?
What I recognized was playing with feeling and expression, and "only" wrong notes.

But I agree so far that if once wrong notes have established, it needs lots work to overcome what is burned in the muscle memory (at least for poor me that's the case, if I get friendly pointed by Chris Breemer to the complete list of wrong notes in my recordings). :roll:

_________________
Olaf Schmidt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:31 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9489
Location: Netherlands
Quote:
I disagree regarding the general feeling: I think the general feeling IS there in the recording.
Yes, that is what I meant. It's just how you read that sentence.

Quote:
Is there really technical skill necessary to hit the right instead wrong notes?

Yes there is. I am surprised you ask ! Technique is about doing things right, or almost right.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:33 pm 
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The good message is, technical wise you are able to manage the thing!!!

That may be so, but don't underestimate the effort and the technical skill involved to get the notes right as well as the general feeling. It is comparatively easy to play a difficult work with great panache but in an approximate way. It seems to me there is something like a 80-20 rule at work here : Getting 80% of the notes right is only 20% of the whole effort. It's in the remaining 20% (well, in reality hopefully 15% or 18%) that 80% of the sweat will go. Not that I've ever got that far, hehe :lol:


I disagree regarding the general feeling: I think the general feeling IS there in the recording. Is there really technical skill necessary to hit the right instead wrong notes? Ok, if the wrong notes are easier to access, then maybe. Patience and true honesty, and faithful reading the score are needed, but technical skill?
What I recognized was playing with feeling and expression, and "only" wrong notes.

But I agree so far that if once wrong notes have established, it needs lots work to overcome what is burned in the muscle memory (at least for poor me that's the case, if I get friendly pointed by Chris Breemer to the complete list of wrong notes in my recordings). :roll:


OKAY :?



Are you people saying that wrong notes were played



or that wrong notes were learned



If its the former self already knew when the rec was posted some werent correct (80% sounds like a less exaggerated number)



if its the latter please tell self where the wrong notes come in :x


Quote:
Quote:
It seems to me there is something like a 80-20 rule at work here : Getting 80% of the notes right is only 20% of the whole effort. It's in the remaining 20% (well, in reality hopefully 15% or 18%) that 80% of the sweat will go. Not that I've ever got that far, hehe :lol:


Selfs ear registered around 40 noticeable mistakes

in a piece this short thats a %^&@ load of mistakes

especially seeing how the continuity is broken so often

As far as accuracy goes thats about 96%

which is awesome ISO

considering how little time self spends practicing lately

self actually has time to practice today:D

self will go over the entire piece with the score to see how self memorized it


Hopefully it will not look as though self creates selfs own transcription of the piece 8)


80-20 rule - 80% of the most important work is done in the last 20% of the time :wink:

Learning the notes and mastering the notes is the easy part

its the interpretation that is the really challenge


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:56 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9489
Location: Netherlands
Quote:
Are you people saying that wrong notes were played
or that wrong notes were learned

Well that is hard to hear, especially in such a difficult etude played at full speed. Myself, I know darn well what all the right notes should be, but I will always miss 10-20% of them (not counted of course, just a feeling) when trying to approach a decent speed. It frustrates the hell out of me.

Quote:
If its the former self already knew when the rec was posted some werent correct (80% sounds like a less exaggerated number)

It's probably more. Of course I said "half" just to tickle you :lol:

Quote:
if its the latter please tell self where the wrong notes come in :x

Ah but that would take a while. Why not get that score down from the attic, if you can still find it, and see for yourself ? Keep listening to yourself, and keep close to the score, it really works.

Quote:
80-20 rule - 80% of the most important work is done in the last 20% of the time

:lol: Yes that is how it often goes in practice. Not a good thing though.

Quote:
Learning the notes and mastering the notes is the easy part
its the interpretation that is the really challenge

Generally, this is very true. Though in an etude, the balance is more towards the notes than usual. You can sort of get away with a full-speed note-perfect etude even if there is not much in the way of interpretation. That does not work with a Mazurka or Polonaise.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am
Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
[
Are you people saying that wrong notes were played



or that wrong notes were learned



Robot, when i said about your delibrate skip keys to a higher key that is perhaps is so called" wrong notes were played and learned". That make sense now.

You need do 8-12 hours a week, regarless this etude or not but to keep your finger boiling.
this is what i suggest;
1) high finger action, mf playing X2 to lift the knockle joint-3third joint.-delibrate high action-slow playing.

2) followed by 2X close finger action-glue to the key, no lifting, work on 1 finger joint only. mf playing slow.

I hope this helps.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:34 pm
Posts: 1278
Quote:
Selfs ear registered around 40 noticeable mistakes


Oh, bother! :? He's really asking for it.

Reality check: This etude is currently out of your technical range. Your maximum tempo is probably around 1/4 note = 60. You need months or years more training to play it as fast as you want to. (I can't run a four-minute-mile, no matter how much I want to and there's not a damned thing I can do about it.) Be honest to yourself.

If self heard 40 mistakes, self needs to clean self's ears.

But seriously, I stopped counting at 300 note errors. You must understand that when others offer criticism, it is done in a spirit of goodwill. Perhaps the area you should work on first is accepting your shortcomings and seeking solutions to fix them honestly, instead of being defensive. This is never an easy or comfortable proposition. The Chopin Etudes are the Mount Everest of pianism; they demand everything of you. If you're up to the challenge, that is.

Concentrate on Chopin's Preludes first. The etudes can come later.

ps, Did you read my critiques of johnmar78's 10/1 in the audition room?

PF


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:56 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9489
Location: Netherlands
There's also this: While the average percentage of wrong notes is perhaps not so very high (and not actully very important), there are certainly some bars in the middle where about half of the notes are wrong. That spoils the performance and sets the perception for the rest of the piece. This is the spot where fatigue sets in and endurance is severely tested. I have exactly the same problems there, and I guess most people do until they are trained to the max.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:29 am
Posts: 692
Location: Germany
Quote:
Quote:
Learning the notes and mastering the notes is the easy part
its the interpretation that is the really challenge


Generally, this is very true. Though in an etude, the balance is more towards the notes than usual. You can sort of get away with a full-speed note-perfect etude even if there is not much in the way of interpretation. That does not work with a Mazurka or Polonaise.


The Chopin Etudes are no real Etudes in the sense as finger gymnastics to me. They are musical masterpieces, and can well be used as concert pieces. They also don't need to be played very fast in the first rank.
Chopin itself played some etudes in his rare concerts, I know that was the case for 25/1 and 25/2. I cannot imagine that he liked to present finger gymnastics, that was against his musical perception.

And Chopin asked that someone plays his 10/3 etude on his death bed!!!

No, especially for the Chopin Etudes the interpretation is the challenge. Full speed note-perfect etudes tend to sound boring, if they are bloodless.

_________________
Olaf Schmidt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:06 am 
Quote:
Quote:
Selfs ear registered around 40 noticeable mistakes


Oh, bother! :? He's really asking for it.

Reality check: This etude is currently out of your technical range. Your maximum tempo is probably around 1/4 note = 60. You need months or years more training to play it as fast as you want to. (I can't run a four-minute-mile, no matter how much I want to and there's not a damned thing I can do about it.) Be honest to yourself.

If self heard 40 mistakes, self needs to clean self's ears.

But seriously, I stopped counting at 300 note errors. You must understand that when others offer criticism, it is done in a spirit of goodwill. Perhaps the area you should work on first is accepting your shortcomings and seeking solutions to fix them honestly, instead of being defensive. This is never an easy or comfortable proposition. The Chopin Etudes are the Mount Everest of pianism; they demand everything of you. If you're up to the challenge, that is.

Concentrate on Chopin's Preludes first. The etudes can come later.

ps, Did you read my critiques of johnmar78's 10/1 in the audition room?

PF


Called a jerk much?


This aint outta selfs range -that's an absurd statement by all means


this rec was done for the fun of it after not practicing for a long az time, and most of the pianos at school is are off by a two steps in the high note, one step in the lower


of course there are more than 40 - like there'd be an exact number to the amount of mistakes in a performance


the fact that it was posted on the SDC as taking lesson from Comme - and individual how is notorious for posting crappy recording - is evidence of how awful self knew it was


the defensive crap was an act - but now self is truly insulted



jeez you're a kill joy :roll:



And about running a four minute mile



you cant run one



but self can 8)



REALIZM IS FOR THE WEAK!!!!


AHHAHAAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHHAAHH :twisted:



EDIT:

After rereading self posts self is unable to see where you believe self was being defensive

therefore the above statements will receive a -1 off the total seriousness level

but its still pretty darn high :evil:


Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:22 am 
Quote:
There's also this: While the average percentage of wrong notes is perhaps not so very high (and not actully very important), there are certainly some bars in the middle where about half of the notes are wrong. That spoils the performance and sets the perception for the rest of the piece. This is the spot where fatigue sets in and endurance is severely tested. I have exactly the same problems there, and I guess most people do until they are trained to the max.




Self asked for info to correct this problem on the first page of this topic

however

self has just got done actually practicing this piece instead of just seeing how fast it can be played

its seems that - in the case of the ascending c eb a eb arp - either rotating aroung the fourth finger or around an imaginary extended 2nd finger the arp becomes easier to perform

self spent a few minutes holding down A with 4 then rotating, cycling, and doing both with 2 and 4 on the ebs

this made the execution much easier and gave it that feeling that it only needed to be repeated to control rather than feeling little to no control at all.

for the descending eb bb eb c and eb ab eb cb arps it seems holding the hand so that the pinking is almost totally in line with the wrist and stretching the thumb helps with these arps

Self is still figuring the a e a c# arp

self has questions as to whether or not these would apply for someone with smaller hands


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:26 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
Posts: 9489
Location: Netherlands
robot :-

Please refrain from becoming personal to the point of being insulting. Maybe this was ok on the Chopin forum but it isn't here. If you can not handle critique in a normal way you had better not be posting in the Audition Room - or anywhere else for that matter.

I have moved this topic into the Technique section, where it belongs. Audition Room is intended to submit recordings for possible inclusion on the site, not for recordings that you know are only halfway there yet.

_________________
Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group