Shall we open a dialog about each other's religious views? I may be stepping out the bounds of this forum (please let me know if I am) but I think this could be an interesting line of conversation.

Pete

Religion topics only get bad when people start getting judgmental.

I was raised Southern Baptist; fundamentalist father, apathetic mother; I was a fundie myself until about the age of 12 when I started to question things more seriously than I had before, but it was a slow progression sort of thing. I don't think I was a declared atheist until about 6 months to a year ago (I'm 29 now).

It was a slow progression because I discarded certain beliefs one by one; I'd resolve one area of cognitive dissonance, only to find not long after that there were still others. You can only discard so many individual beliefs until the whole belief system falls apart. So, I have a lot of sympathy for the fundies with the Southern Baptist Convention, who are so adamant about Biblical inerrancy. A quote from one of them:

First, I have to say that I pass no personal judgment on any single person's belief system nor do I ever make any attempt to convert anyone to mine.

I was born of Roman Catholic parents and raised in the traditions of the Church. Up until age seven, I took the teachings as sacrosanct. Then, one day, an epiphany occurred. Having just finished reading the bible cover to cover, I could see the unreconciled differences between The Book and reality. I couldn't help feeling I'd been taken for a fool. Of course, I immediately squelched these horrid ideas my sinful little mind had cooked up against an infallible, a perfect religion which, as I had been informed, was Catholicism. I eventually came to the realization that every faith ever practiced in the history of humanity has caused a cessation of intellect; if one book has all the answers and is unquestionable, then what incentive is there to think about anything else? I deeply hold the belief that any embrace of immutable dogma is a grave sin.

I believe faith is a function of the limits of the human psyche. It never fails; if we understand an idea, we take it as common sense, never invoking faith of any kind; we don't believe in a rain-god, because we understand the water-cycle; our astrophysicists understand a branch of calculus known as perturbation theory, therefore we don't need a god to explain the otherwise miraculous stability of the planets' orbits around our sun. Isaac Newton did not understand perturbation theory (it had yet to be discovered); because of that lack in his knowledge (which was vast but limited, to be sure), he could not mathematically explain the regularity and stability of our solar-system. According to his calculations, the orbits should be unstable, causing the planets and moons to fly away along random paths. In his Principia he concluded that this could only be due to an omnipotent force:

"The six primary Planets are revolv'd about the Sun, in circles concentric with the Sun, and with motions directed towards the same parts, and almost in the same plane....But it is not to be conceived that mere mechanical causes could give birth to so many regular motions.
...This most beautiful System of the Sun, Planets and Comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."


Just as soon as we reach the boundaries of knowledge, we chalk up events to the supernatural. This is dangerous. We humans don't handle superstition very well, we get afraid, we worry about others' views of it, we kill and die over it. From A.D. 800-1100, Baghdad was the science capital of the world (Arabic numbers and algebra are products of this intellectually fertile period). Then Imam Hamid al-Ghazali (A.D. 1058-1111) whose philosophy basically said math is the work of the devil enters the equation. He forbade any thinking beyond the Koran, thereby undoing any intellectual progress and ushering in an age of violent fundamentalism that continues to this day. The Catholic teachings against contraception have had a profoundly negative impact in some parts of Africa, where use of condoms is considered sinful, but overpopulation and high AIDS rates are somehow taken for granted. Religion often tells us what is right, even if we know better.

. . .

I base my belief system on one premise: as an integral (albeit infinitesimal) part of reality, the ultimate job of being human is to humbly respect what actually is, regardless of what our terribly limited minds may want to think. Existence exists. I don't think anyone can disagree on that point. Since existence exists (in whatever form it does) we are compelled toward honest acknowledgment, whether we understand it or not.

So, do I belong to a sect? No. Am I an atheist, a deist, a pantheist? No, no, no. Am I undecided? No. Do I believe in the existence of God? That is an unanswerable question. Do I have faith? Yes, I have 100 percent faith in the fact that what is, IS.

The entirety of reality may be infinite, therefore impossible to define. It makes no sense to assign anything as the last word.

Respectfully submitted,
PF

Interesting topic, and quite ok as long as nobody gets all righteous about it. Let's RANT

I am deeply ambivalent about religion. Up until the age of enlightenment, it has been the main driving force behind western civilization. Without it, there is no way of telling what the world would look like today. Possibly, we would have been many centuries further in technology (not sure whether that is to be lamented or not). But we would also be so much spiritually and culturally poorer. Those who mention the atrocities and idiocies perpetrated in the name of faith have a point, as well as those who mention the many good things that faith and religion have brought, and can still bring, to individuals, society and all humanity. Like so many things, it is a sword that cuts both sides.

I was baptized in the default Dutch Protestant tradition but was never any religious, up until a period where I was deeply in love with a girl who was heavily into it. I did my best to understand and embrace it (naively thinking this could actually work securing a relation) but during a year or so, it gradually wilted and I finally had to admit this was not for me. Although I still retain a fair knowledge and understanding of it, and of course being involved with Bach Chorales and playing church services I have to understand and respect it. My unstinting love for Bach and his music comes as close to religion as I guess I will ever get.

As Pete says, reading the Bible with a modern mind does not cut it. So much of it is evidently primitive and superstitious, fine for the time it was conceived but in no way fit for this age (despite some going through hoops to prove that each and everything has equal relevance for our times). It is impossible for a modern mind to believe the Bible from front to end, just because it "has been written", without sticking one's head in the ground - or looking the other way - most of the time. It amuses me how many people can actually do this, and I am not sure whether to respect or mock it.

On the other hand, paradoxically, the steady decline of western religion (at least here in the Netherlands) worries me. Churches are closing, congregations are dwindling, hardly any new blood comes in. Once we lose this, it will be gone for good. Funny enough, most people will not admit being a-religious, claiming they believe in 'something' even though they do not have the faintest idea what that something may be. To my mind that has little to do with religion, it just proves that most people need something to believe in. The ironic thing about the decline of Christian faith, clearly in the name of progress, is the simultaneous ascent of Islam fundamentalism. Either Islam has something important the Christian religion doesn't, or militant faith is the last hope of the underdog. I suspect it is the latter, as the two religions are not really that much fundamentally different.

Ah well, phew. Better get some work done now

I would describe myself as strongly a-religious but not a-spiritual. My God is the God of Spinoza, so I suppose in that way I am a sort of atheist (I cringe at calling myself that, it seems so irrationally decisive). Now it's a matter of semantics.

If someone asks me, "do you believe in God?" (and I used to get needled constantly, until everyone figured out I'd been thinking it over for 20 years) my answer is, "I don't understand the question."

The Jehovah's Witnesses avoid me, lest they be engaged in a seven hour conversation.

"Atheist" isn't so decisive as it is made out to be. "Anti-theist", on the other hand, is. Atheists allow for the possibility of a god (though usually only the deistic sort of god, since there is evidence against the other), but they require evidence. Atheists for the most part have decided, based on the evidence, that the existence of a god is highly unlikely, but they're not entirely opposed to the idea.

And yes, it's a fine line of semantics, but I hate for anyone to cringe to call themselves what they are.

I'd have to say that I disagree with that. I'm pretty sure that, if there were no religion, that people like Bach would have surely found their inspiration elsewhere.

No they won't. The Muslims flooding your country will just take it over and convert them to mosques. Just look at England. Sad. Very Sad. But that's what you Western Europeans get for having good economies.

Indeed, I almost made that distinction in a previous post. Being anti-anything is not in my nature. I'm exceedingly open-minded about things I don't know, yet immovably stubborn concerning things I KNOW I know. I know the Earth is an oblate spheroid, and I don't know whether string theory has any teeth sunk into reality. God would go in the open-minded category. What annoys me is when someone asserts that they KNOW that they know God exists. That is impossible. When one does that, he/she is being anti-atheist.

Whatever the case may be, we're all on the planet at the same time, so I hope we figure ourselves out before an asteroid decides to hit us. That's my motivation, get the technology to divert a planetesimal so we don't remain a mere drop in the cosmic bucket.

I'm going to sleep, now.

Interesting topic. I'll add my two cents (And I hope it's not too difficult to speak in English about it...)

At first, I believe in god. I raised in a Christian family and got educated in a way which lets me decide for my own whether I will do it like my parents or not. But believing that god exists has no real use if there's only the belief in something far away in heaven and no further consequence.
I stick to the bible in my faith. I think, just the bible can be an acceptable base for a "religion". Religion in quotes because this word means a way invented by humans which has the function to save one's soul by cleaning one's stance or something like that. My opinion is: There is no way to get deliverance through human religion models! One has to go back to the bible.
Maybe that sounds very fundamental. In a way, it is. But the expression "fundamentalism" has a bad and daunting touch. I don't mean anything like "It's good to kill people for your god"! It's just, if you want to find to god, then look on what HE himself said. He should know best how to become redeemed
That requires a big portion of faith. I personally believe, the bible was inspired by god. There is no possibility to prove this statement with scientific methods. But indeed, the bible is the best verified book in the whole world. Also it is the most produced book and was translated in most languages ever. That surely must have a reason!
I heard many people say something like "I only believe what I see. So I don't believe in god." Argh! If you see something, you don't have to believe it, you just know it! You have to search for god. He will come when you really want to have something to do with him.



It IS possible to know god. Many people do. You cannot provide evidence for god's existence in a scientific way, like it's impossible to rule out his existence. But god can show you in a personal way that he exists. This certainty is individual, and most Christians who live after the will of god do have this sureness. That cannot be imposed on someone. Everyone has to make this experience on his own. And this experience can change lives completely! I know people who were addicted to drugs, were gangsters, depressive and so on and who were turned around by 180 degrees as they met god.



I agree that this sometimes can be dangerous.
What you said reminded me of the topic evolution of life. Contrary to accepted opinion, it is NOT proved that evolution (in a way that explains the momentary complexicity of life) has happened. It is not even plausible! (I am very interested in this topic, so I have a deeper look than most other people here.) When you work really scientific and objective (nearly no one does so ), you will recognise that the evolution model has much more explanation gaps than everyone says. It is only a MODEL! Models can be more or less correct and fitting to the indications. Evolution wants to explain formation of life in an atheistic way. Why? Science should test all possible ways, not only an atheistic. There are scientists who try to work objective on this theme. They usually are religious motivated, but they don't want to kill further research with a sentence like "God created everything. Point." In fact, comments by such persons are rejected with polemic and unscientific answers. Because nobody wants to accept that those people could be right!
So there are indeed problems that can't be explained without god. To bar god from science is not correct. We have to debate about the possibility that god really could have made the world. That is NOT dangerous, believe it or not

I just want to make people think more about themes like god and science.

This may well be touching the core of the issue. Way I see it, religion is not at all about knowing, it is about believing. It is quite possible for people to believe something whilst somewhere, it the back of their mind, they know it is not likely to be true. Just shut out the relevant rational part of your brain and you can believe anything. A good trick if you can do it.

Here are a couple of very personal entries in my “Insomnia Journal.” Read them if you dare. They are mere ramblings of an insomniac who has had near death experiences. They are somewhat on the topic of religion or spirituality or lack thereof. I hope it's not too "over the top" for the forum.

August 26, 2007, 4:43 AM

Interminable is the word for this morning…or is it night? It’s very dark outside and Inside. Darkness prevails in my life. I just went through a seemingly interminable period in bed of re-living my interminable recovery process. It was laced with HELL. I was a prisoner in my body. That has always been my worst fear. What’s the name of that Poe short story about being buried alive? Was it “The Pit and the Pendulum”? It terrified me when I was a child. That’s why the idea of being buried in a closed casket is horrifying to me even though I realize that I wouldn’t be aware of it. My experience in the Intensive Care Unit was almost identical to being buried alive.

“Not aware of it!” I remember the two months in intensive care when people thought I wasn’t aware of many things. I remember that I was aware of my scrotum being as big as a watermelon…and extremely painful…”Nurses….please, please, please! Don’t turn me over…you don’t have to change the sheets…It hurts too much…just leave me alone…Oh! God! It hurts when you pull on me!” Of course, they can’t hear my screams because I can’t make any noise. The tubes or lines or shunts or whatever they’re called….and most of all, my scrotum…I’ve never told or asked anyone about my scrotum. Was it as large as I believe it was? I vaguely remember the humiliation of one nurse showing my scrotum to another who sounded amazed at what she saw…They thought I was unconscious, but I can remember…And then there was the feeling of confinement. What did they call it? Oh, yeah. I was being “restrained” to protect myself from myself. I call it being tied down so you can't move at all. Can’t move; can’t talk. Am I really alive? Of course, I only remembered that because I was “getting better.” The truth is that I was “better” when I was totally unconscious. Being conscious of the “situation” was pure hell…

Sept. 17, 2:47 AM

Why do I notice myself saying things like “Oh, God” or “Please help me sleep” and other such appeals to some Source? I have no beliefs in the supernatural. I label myself agnostic leaning towards atheism. The only reason I’m not an atheist is because I have no proof one way or another about the existence of supernatural beings. However, I definitely don’t believe in a personal god. I’ve lived sixty-five years now and see no evidence of a personal god. I’ve seen very good people suffer. I’ve observed many people pray and plead for intervention of a personal deity. I don’t know of even one experience in my sixty-five years in which there has been the intervention of a superior being to change things. It seems most humans are always ready to thank a god when something good happens and make excuses for that same god when something bad happens. It seems more logical to me that if you’re going to thank a god for all of the “blessings,” you should also be ready to blame that god for tragedies. Either that god IS in control of everything or it isn’t. To believe otherwise is not logical.

I find it bewildering when someone says something like “God was with him” or “Thank God that he’s still alive” when something horrific happens to someone. I mean like when a child is seriously injured in an accident and people act as though God was with the child because he only lost one arm. Or when someone says a god was with a soldier because the soldier is alive and only has to spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair. That just doesn’t make any sense to me. How many times have I witnessed people suffer and die while loved ones are praying that s/he lives or doesn’t suffer? I have never witnessed prayer affect happenings beyond our control any more than hope. To me, hope and prayer have the same results. It would be wonderful if prayer changed things the way we wish or “pray” that it would. Or maybe it wouldn’t? duh-da-da-da-duh (Tune from “The Twilight Zone”)

If there were a benevolent omniscient and omnipotent supernatural being, there would be no need for prayer. The very belief in omniscience and omnipotence in a benevolent being precludes any justification for human prayer. The “greater good” would always occur without human intervention. Of course, I can hear some religious people saying things like “God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform.” That’s just a cop out when there is no explanation for things. Just like it’s a cop out for people to create religion to explain what they don’t understand. Why can’t we just say we don’t know the answers? Do we even know the question? Perhaps it’s more important to know the questions.

When I looked at what happened to me with the liver transplant, it confirms my philosophy. I had many friends and relatives praying that my surgery would be a success. I’ve even had people tell me how “God” was good to me and saved my life. I can’t buy that. I can’t believe that any god was good to me by causing me to endure the pain and suffering that I did. I flat lined twice, but unfortunately there were no brightly lit tunnels to heaven. Others might even say that God was trying to teach me a lesson or punishing me because I don’t/can’t believe in religion. That seems logical to some people “of faith.” I entered that serious surgery without apprehension. I was happy to receive a life-saving organ. Now as I look back on the experience, if religious people were right, a loving “god” would have let me die without the suffering and taken me to my “eternal reward.” To me the fact that I had to endure what I had to endure further confirms my beliefs or I should say lack thereof in a personal god. No loving god could subject an innocent being to such torture.

I’m sincere in my philosophy of life. I’ve sincerely attempted to be the best person I can be and I continue to do so. But the continued belief in anything which I find no evidence of eludes me. Does that make me an immoral person? Unfortunately, many people believe so.

If there is that benevolent being, I, nor anyone else, have any worries. Things will turn out as they should. I believe things will be as they are supposed to be. Excuse my redundancy---it was for emphasis. We just have to make the best of what we have to work with. Believe it or not, that’s what I do.

In the infinity of time and space does it really matter anyway? We individuals are humorous in our little assumptions that we actually matter. What is the real significance of my existence? In the overall view of infinite time and space my existence is of no significance. .

I believe that teaching those horrific ideas of eternal hellfire to children borders on child abuse. Of course, the fundamentalists are horrified that there are more and more people like me every day who can’t accept their ideas. The core Christian beliefs are definitely just as primitive and superstitious as the core religious beliefs of the ancient Greeks with their Olympian Gods, the Hindus and their thousands of gods, the ancient Egyptians, today’s Muslims, the Orthodox Jews and their belief in the Old Testament, and the thousands and thousands of other religious beliefs of people around the world. One thing they usually have in common is the proven correlation between strong religious beliefs and illiteracy or a lack of education. The poor and illiterate have an increased tendency to be more religious and believe in more miracles while the more intelligent and educated are less likely to be very religious. Of course, there are exceptions to this hypothesis, but it has been proven to be true in numerous studies. It doesn’t even require scientific studies to illustrate this fact. A mere observation of people as one traverses his life solidifies this theory.

Enough of that stuff, John. I guess it’s the teacher in you that craves for society to comprehend that the religious theories they were indoctrinated with since childhood are fundamentally flawed. I hope it’s not smug superiority that causes me to feel this way. I hope it’s the injustices perpetrated by zealous members of religious groups that cause me to realize the absurdity of ingrained religious beliefs.

Wow so many anti-theists / atheists. If that's what you confirm yourself to be, then so be it.

Life and mere existence are too perfect to be a coincedence. For me rational thought that evolution beginning from simple proteins coming together to complex organisms like us, is just silly to consider. The chances of that happening are unreal.

Furthermore it is impossible to go infinitely backwards in time. Since all matter is moved from prior matter (that is, the result is an effect of a cause and so on), there has to be an Originator--the original Mover--God.

We humans are the only advanced creatures on this planet and perhaps one of the youngest according to science (and in fact Biblical thought). Given the theory of evolution, the creatures which have the longest time to adapt and adapt well are the ones which will carry on their species. Man has not had as long as a time to adapt but has adapted extremely well (too well which is causing a great stress on the planet). This is a result of our huge brains, as rational thought would conclude, but again the chances of a young animal having a large advantage over all living things is too great to say that it was a coincedence.

Sure I question what is after death and what was before life. But do I turn my back to my faith? No. It is called faith for a reason. And for those who expect God to hold their hands like a parent does to a child, I say that you are a selfish person. Always at the receiving end. Life is cruel, humans are sinful, greedy, and outright immoral. But there are some of us who act in goodness of heart to help our fellow humans as much as safety permits. Don't expect that God will "come down in a fiery chariot and hand deliver help" because if you expect it but it does not happen you will loose your faith. There is a passage from the Holy Bible that reads: "For thou art the temple of the Spirit, the dwelling house of the Lord, God of Israel" (or something on the lines, forgot exactly where in the Bible). We can take that and apply it with the saying that "God works in mysterious ways", in short don't look for the skies to part like something out of Greek Mythology and for God to interact with humans on that level. No! The Holy Spirit works between humans and within humans.

Science answers nothing, it can give us facts and numbers but will never answer the question "Why?".

You might not believe the ceremonies of religion--they are after all a creation of man--but to deny the existence of God merely on basis that He does not spoon feed you is outrageous and frankly humorus. Many people loose faith because God shows "too little" to believe in. But I beg to differ, we loose faith because we are unwilling to "open our eyes".


These are my beliefs. I was born into a Roman Catholic family, I am R.C, and will always be.

-jg

Wow! Some deep thinkers, here.

I'm Methodist. I go to church for the hymns. (kidding - sort of).

When my grandma and another family member were still around, we all sat together in a church pew and liked to sing all the hymns as loud as we could. The congregation was used to it, because my dad used to be the church music director, and he sang solos in church often. Anyway, I loved singing with my family. We even did a couple gig's together, calling ourselves the Hart Family Singers. One time at a the town festival, we sang on a little gazebo-type stage and during a song something made me laugh and I couldn't stop. You know when you are trying so hard not to laugh, but your shoulders are shaking up and down? You should have seen the evil looks my mom was giving me!

Back at church - My mom took the soprano, my sister alto, I did second soprano, my dad tenor, and my brother bass. And grandma was the loudest alto ever! If she was late to church and there wasn't room for her to sit with us in the pew, we could always find her at hymn time. Plus, she was always a beat ahead of everybody else.

I'm glad you said that. Isn't music wonderful?! It knows no creed. I think, no, I KNOW (haha) that is why I love it so.

That's a funny scene...loud grandma. This one time (at band camp) I mean...in piano performance class, a colleague was playing a Beethoven Sonata when she played a wrong chord, not just a subtle note error, she very distinctly played an augmented chord with a minor 9, loudly. This was so unexpected, because it was going so well, I cracked. I let out one of those goofy, guffaw-snort laughs and it just went downhill from there. But I digress!

. . .

I'm always interested in others' thoughts on most any subject, especially those about the BIG questions. I feel science has no conflict with religion, Richard Dawkins (a perfectly respectable scientist) would disagree. But I'm not Dawkins and find his vehemence a bit excessive; I believe religion and science are simply two different descriptions of the same thing. As we go along, I sincerely hope the yawning chasm between the two will narrow, through science's acknowledgment of religion and vice versa.

. . .

Humanity is evolving culturally a million times faster than it is biologically; that fact puts us in a terrible predicament. Biologically, changes occur so slowly as to be unnoticed; any poor branches on the genetic tree are quickly pruned by natural selection (think "continental drift"). With culture, however, the system of checks and balances is outstripped by it's rate of change (think "nuclear fission"). Some very risky, even dubious social experiments are running pretty much unchecked (nuclear tech., internet, politics, talk radio, TV, self-tanner, cutting edge of science included). Societal cancers are rampantly metastasizing. Of course, science and religion are each partly to blame, science for inventing the means of self destruction and religion for maintaining militant fundamentalism which encourages self-destruction via blind faith.
Don't get me wrong, not all faiths are equal! I don't recall the last time the Carmelites (an order of Catholic nuns) blew up a bus or decided to crash some planes. To quote the great thinker Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?"

Maybe we're not ready as a species to accept the responsibility that comes with knowledge of the empirical sort. For our sake, I hope we are.

Oh my, did I rant again?

Pete