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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:26 pm 
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demonic_advent wrote:
Hmmm... not particularly impressed, sorry to say.

I don't like Liszt much. He's got lots of "flashiness" and "show-off-ishness" which is cool, but I find that the actual musical value diminishes when that happens.

This piece didn't impress me. It was very dark, yes, but a very opressive darkness, very humid. It made me feel dragged down, and gross. It wasn't the exciting darkness of Rachmaninoff or Scriabin, but more... ... hmmm ... "sticky?"

Also, Liszt decided to be stupid and end a work that is clearly in a minor tonality in the major tonality... BAH! Humbug!
Composer's only do that when they're weeines. Ending on the major is NOT COOL in my book. And I can only abode it if done tastefully. Bach, for instance, does it horribly in a lot of cases. Thus, while I can love his works, I tend to hate the endings, because out of NOWHERE will appear this frill little major chord. Bah. Liszt is just as bad.


*gasp* :shock: :? :twisted: *shocked astonishment* :( *inarticulate growl*

How dare thee??!! I, sir, challenge you to a duel ... pistols ... at dawn. *throwing down the gauntlet* I shall meet you on the field, sir, and vanquish your boorish opinion. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:25 pm 
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I like the picardy third. Chopin does it a lot, too (the 10/2 etude in a minor comes immediately to mind), and I always find it to be tasteful when he does it, as I do with Bach. Sometimes Chopin extends it to an entire passage of major in a minor key (25/12 in c minor for example) and I always love it. :D

I agree with demonic advent about Liszt, though. I find his music to be lacking profundity much of the time.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:17 am 
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Terez wrote:
I like the picardy third. Chopin does it a lot, too (the 10/2 etude in a minor comes immediately to mind), and I always find it to be tasteful when he does it, as I do with Bach. Sometimes Chopin extends it to an entire passage of major in a minor key (25/12 in c minor for example) and I always love it. :D

I agree with demonic advent about Liszt, though. I find his music to be lacking profundity much of the time.


Hmmm... When a composer can do it tastefully, by making the major ending fit naturally... then it's okay. Even though I would still like the minor ending...

But sometimes some composers just come out of NOWHERE all like: "Hmmm... I'd better pretend to be happy here..." And they're all major and crap like that.

If I had a good example off the top of my head... I'd list it. But... I'm tired. So I can't think.
Bleh. Just as well I don't. I probably end up saying something about somebody's favorite work and end up in another duel. :P

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:58 pm 
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demonic_advent wrote:
Composer's only do that when they're weeines. Ending on the major is NOT COOL in my book. And I can only abode it if done tastefully. Bach, for instance, does it horribly in a lot of cases. Thus, while I can love his works, I tend to hate the endings, because out of NOWHERE will appear this frill little major chord. Bah. Liszt is just as bad.

Hey, you ! :evil:

Don't ever accuse Bach of doing anything horrible. Bach was never wrong and nothing he wrote is ever less than perfect, including his major turns. If you don't concede, you'll have to duel me after Nathan's killed you first.

I will some time in the not too distant future post Shostakovich's P&F Op.87 No.12. The ending of that fugue is the most beautiful major key ending to a minor piece that I know. It is absolutely divine. I hope you'll deem it tastefully enough to abode :roll:

BTW - I wonder if there are any examples of the converse - ending a major-key piece in minor. That would take some courage.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:12 pm 
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techneut wrote:
BTW - I wonder if there are any examples of the converse - ending a major-key piece in minor. That would take some courage.


Off the top of my head: Schubert (Impromptu in E flat major Op.90/2) and that copycat of Brahms (Rhapsody Op.119/4, same tonality, same ending).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:28 pm 
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alf wrote:
techneut wrote:
BTW - I wonder if there are any examples of the converse - ending a major-key piece in minor. That would take some courage.


Off the top of my head: Schubert (Impromptu in E flat major Op.90/2) and that copycat of Brahms (Rhapsody Op.119/4, same tonality, same ending).

Yes indeed. But both pieces have been in minor for the best part of a page by then. I was really thinking of a turn to minor right at the end.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:53 am 
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techneut wrote:
demonic_advent wrote:
Composer's only do that when they're weeines. Ending on the major is NOT COOL in my book. And I can only abode it if done tastefully. Bach, for instance, does it horribly in a lot of cases. Thus, while I can love his works, I tend to hate the endings, because out of NOWHERE will appear this frill little major chord. Bah. Liszt is just as bad.

Hey, you ! :evil:

Don't ever accuse Bach of doing anything horrible. Bach was never wrong and nothing he wrote is ever less than perfect, including his major turns. If you don't concede, you'll have to duel me after Nathan's killed you first.

I will some time in the not too distant future post Shostakovich's P&F Op.87 No.12. The ending of that fugue is the most beautiful major key ending to a minor piece that I know. It is absolutely divine. I hope you'll deem it tastefully enough to abode :roll:

BTW - I wonder if there are any examples of the converse - ending a major-key piece in minor. That would take some courage.


Hmmm... Bach was far from perfect. Try looking at his Prelude and Fugue in E Minor, from the Well Tempered Clavier, Book I. According to my score: Both the prelude and fugue end in the major key. However, if you actually look at them, you'll realize this: The prelude would be MUCH better off ending on the minor chord. Try listening to it both ways, and you'll see what I mean. The major just sounds weak, pathetic, and fake. The minor has real depth to it. THEN... the fugue. It has a lovely introduction near the ending of the highly chromatic, and very dark theme... and then 2 seconds later flops away into some frilly major catastrophe. It doesn't even make any sense... the ending of the piece is far to abrubt, and with no development at all that would suggest ending in the major key. Bleh.

Also, I love Shostakovich's Prelude and Fugue in G-Sharp Minor. It kicks massive butt. And, the major ending actually has some nice development to it, so it makes perfect sense. However... does that mean that you're going to also soon record the Prelude and Fugue in D-Flat Major? I'd be intrested to hear how you handle the fugue... my piano teacher has decided that I should look at it for fun after I finish learning my current stuff. However... it seems difficult. I would me most intrested to hear your recording.

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"This is death! This is death as this emanation of the female which leads to unification ... death and love ... this is the abyss." This is not music", said [Sabaneev] to him, "this is something else..." - "This is the Mysterium," he said softly.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:51 am 
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demonic_advent wrote:
Hmmm... Bach was far from perfect. Try looking at his Prelude and Fugue in E Minor, from the Well Tempered Clavier, Book I. According to my score: Both the prelude and fugue end in the major key. However, if you actually look at them, you'll realize this: The prelude would be MUCH better off ending on the minor chord. Try listening to it both ways, and you'll see what I mean. The major just sounds weak, pathetic, and fake. The minor has real depth to it. THEN... the fugue. It has a lovely introduction near the ending of the highly chromatic, and very dark theme... and then 2 seconds later flops away into some frilly major catastrophe. It doesn't even make any sense... the ending of the piece is far to abrubt, and with no development at all that would suggest ending in the major key. Bleh.

I did actually look at them, as I recorded them. Not the strongest pair in the WTC, and by far not my favourite. But I can not concur with any of your misgivings. There does not have to be a development leading to a major ending. It is the surpise element that was so popular in Baroque music - although Bach does it so odtehn that it is hardly surprising anymore. Maybe it was a habit, maybe our ears and minds have just accepted it as the proper thing to do. Yours haven't. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

So, should you survive the dual with Nathan, please choose your weapon, sir. I shall meet you half way :P

demonic_advent wrote:
Also, I love Shostakovich's Prelude and Fugue in G-Sharp Minor. It kicks massive butt. And, the major ending actually has some nice development to it, so it makes perfect sense. However... does that mean that you're going to also soon record the Prelude and Fugue in D-Flat Major? I'd be intrested to hear how you handle the fugue... my piano teacher has decided that I should look at it for fun after I finish learning my current stuff. However... it seems difficult. I would me most intrested to hear your recording.

That must be the crazy no.15 you mean. I will record it, but not anytime soon. I'm scared stiff of that one, it is the most bewildering piece I have ever tried. Yes it is incredibly difficult, more so on the poor mind than on the fingers. A bit like the G sharp minor, but far worse. That one at least is getting into shape now.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:32 am 
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techneut wrote:
alf wrote:
techneut wrote:
BTW - I wonder if there are any examples of the converse - ending a major-key piece in minor. That would take some courage.


Off the top of my head: Schubert (Impromptu in E flat major Op.90/2) and that copycat of Brahms (Rhapsody Op.119/4, same tonality, same ending).

Yes indeed. But both pieces have been in minor for the best part of a page by then. I was really thinking of a turn to minor right at the end.


It comes to my knowledge that a reverse picardy can be found in Mendelssohn's Characteristic Piece Op. 7 No. 7. Good to know. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:45 am 
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alf wrote:
It comes to my knowledge that a reverse picardy can be found in Mendelssohn's Characteristic Piece Op. 7 No. 7. Good to know. :)

Very interesting. I thought there would have been more, though few, examples.
Also it says here

Quote:
those of Chopin's nocturnes that are in a minor key almost always end with Picardy thirds


That should help dispel any notion that a major ending is for weenies only :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:49 am 
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techneut wrote:
That should help dispel any notion that a major ending is for weenies only :wink:

But for those who think Chopin is a weenie...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:10 am 
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Terez wrote:
But for those who think Chopin is a weenie...

If such aberrant creatures exist at all, they have no place here :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:54 pm 
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I think GG thought Chopin was a weenie, and I've heard that sentiment expressed by many. Effeminate, overly sensitive, and all sorts of other similar expressions...I think sometimes that these people just can't play Chopin.

That made me think of Schumann's version of Chopin in Carnaval...and that made me look to see if it's on PS...and indeed it is, but it's just labeled "Carnaval", when it should be labeled "Chopin", being as it is only one movement of Carnaval. Can you fix that, Chris?

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:53 am 
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Terez wrote:
I think GG thought Chopin was a weenie,

Yeah well, what did he know :wink:

Terez wrote:
That made me think of Schumann's version of Chopin in Carnaval...and that made me look to see if it's on PS...and indeed it is, but it's just labeled "Carnaval", when it should be labeled "Chopin", being as it is only one movement of Carnaval. Can you fix that, Chris?

Hm, yes, seems like my mistake :oops: I've fixed it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:57 am 
Sorry to break this up peeps, but can any of you suggest any more well know dark piano pieces :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:53 pm 
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Any even-numbered Chopin prelude. Chopin etudes: Op. 10 No. 12 is quite well known and dark. Op. 25 Nos. 11 and 12 are also quite dark, if not quite so well known as the revolutionary. Chopin sonata No. 2 in B-flat minor (every movement is dark, and the third movement is the infamous funeral march). Chopin Ballade No. 4 (my personal favorite).

I could go on and on...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:40 pm 
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Well, it's not death metal dark and heavy, but Beethoven's Pathetique sonata comes to mind.
Also, when I WAS a metal head, I kind of thought the B minor prelude from WTC book II sort of
rocked (at least at the tempo Glenn Gould played it).


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