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 Post subject: new improved version of op10,25,66,53 plus HALF SPEED
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am
Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
Thank You and Thank you again.

Please put your teachers hat on for the last round.


Thanks you all for your valuable critique. yes accurate rhytm comes first before rubato. I am doing half speed already. and I can see my recording is improving day by day.....infinity,,,,,

Here is my lastest take and would be the last for 2006 before my familiy complains,,,,,too much recording and no TV time ..haaaaa. mMeanwhile, i am still mastering these.......half speed(op10/1).
Thanks


here is my HALF SPEED REC> took me 2 hours to uploadXXXXXXX

[Admin edit: Attachments deleted]


Last edited by johnmar78 on Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:21 pm 
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Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
Very nice. You play with courage. This is the first time I could pick out just a few slips here and there. But I believe that someone of lesser talent should not judge someone with greater talent. It just does not work that way. :D


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 Post subject: Chopin Etudes
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:01 pm 
Bravo to you, Johnmar, on greatly improved versions of these etudes.

Opus 10 #1: The bass line has become transformed into the melody, instead of simply octave notes that were tacked on to the right hand part. Still, I would recommend that you take your time and learn the descending arpeggios. If you haven't done so, I would suggest that you finger every descending note, and stick to the fingering you have chosen. Try slowing down a bit when you practice, and determine your baseline for speed at which you have nearly 100% accuracy in the right hand -- then gradually increase speed from that point.

Opus 25 #1: Aaaah! Now the arpeggios sound as though they are aeolean harps in nature (that is to say, they sound like they are vibrating in their own natural resonance), and the large note melodies seem far better integrated into the overall scheme of the piece.

It is great to see such improvement; evidently you take instruction very well.

Cheers,

Teacher Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Etudes
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am
Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
jcfeli wrote:
Bravo to you, Johnmar, on greatly improved versions of these etudes.

Opus 10 #1: The bass line has become transformed into the melody, instead of simply octave notes that were tacked on to the right hand part. Still, I would recommend that you take your time and learn the descending arpeggios. If you haven't done so, I would suggest that you finger every descending note, and stick to the fingering you have chosen. Try slowing down a bit when you practice, and determine your baseline for speed at which you have nearly 100% accuracy in the right hand -- then gradually increase speed from that point.

Opus 25 #1: Aaaah! Now the arpeggios sound as though they are aeolean harps in nature (that is to say, they sound like they are vibrating in their own natural resonance), and the large note melodies seem far better integrated into the overall scheme of the piece.

It is great to see such improvement; evidently you take instruction very well.

Cheers,

Teacher Joe


Thanks Joe,
you words -"naturally vibrate" have sparked this version, and this would be my playing for now on..therefore the melody notes is much integrated into the line. Thanks again.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:50 am 
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First I must say, great improvement! Indeed, as 'Teacher Joe' pointed out, the bass now has a melody. Continue to seek to define and refine that melody. The arpeggios are also more defined. Overall, your performance shows an increased 'color'. I enjoyed it. You're on the right track.

Keep in mind, you are moving in the right direction! But...

One major flaw has managed to percolate its way deep into your subconscious.

Alrighty then, teacher hat on. :twisted:

This is not nearly as hard as it sounds.

When one plays this etude, one must think first of the inspiration of its composition, Bach's Prelude Number One, WTC Book One, in C major. Chopin wrote this etude as a direct analogue of Bach's C major prelude. The Bach prelude demands one thing above all else, restraint. We would consider the idea of playing it at a tempo and volume that outstrip the capacity of the piano, our fingers and the accurate rendering of the notation ludicrous. Ask yourself why, then, you feel the need to play Chopin's variation of that Bach prelude, with the all the impetus (and subtlety) of a locomotive?

Technically speaking, your performance of the etude 10/1 is quite a mess. In almost every descending arppeggio you did one of three things. (Bars 6, 8, 32, 54, 56, 60 and 78 were better than most, however.)

1: You omitted the second semiquaver of the descending quadruplets (bars 2, 4, 10, 11, 16, 20, 22, 28, 33, 34, 36, 38, 40, 48, 50, 52, 58, 64, 70 and 72.) whilst altering the rhythm into that of descending triplets. The fourth finger kept skipping over its intended destination. Instead of playing 5-4-2-1 it sounded like 5-2-1. Bars 31-36 were extra messy. The solution is twofold.

First, make sure you use the fingering pattern 5-4-2-1. I emphasise the 2 on purpose, it acts as a pivot, to aid the frictionless transfer of angular velocity via conservation of angular momentum, qualities often erroneously attributed to downward force, when in fact, the least amount of downward force must be used! Imagine, if you will, the bones of the upper body as a bicycle. Imagine your vertebrae and shoulder girdle as the bike's frame, the arm bones down to where the wrist joins the index finger as the axle, your finger bones as spokes, the piano keyboard as the seamless interaction of the gear and chain, the muscles of your upper body as the cyclist's legs and the soft fingertips as shock absorbing cushion of air in the tires. It would be nonsensical to attempt to propel a bicycle down a long stretch of smooth road by placing it in the gear intended for going uphill. Your legs would be hopelessly flailing 'round and 'round trying to accelerate, but lacking the leverage to do so. It would be equally silly to spasticly jerk your bike to and fro, in a futile effort to make it go faster. It would be far more logical to place the bike in a gear that produced the most forward speed with the least leg motion, maximizing leverage, while keeping the body still and the feet in constant yet gentle contact with the (bicycle) pedals, maximizing efficiency. Use of leverage combined with a seamless legato (efficiency) is crucial to an effortless 10/1. This is the point of difficulty that seperates the brilliant renditions from the adequate ones.

2: Skipped notes whilst altering the rhythm into odd groups. Especially in bar 24, you played a sixteenth note followed by a dotted sixteenth note and then another sixteenth note, dotted rhythm in other words; to compensate for the lack of an effective pivot. In bar 42, I heard 5 + 7. Bar 43 was 7 + 6. Only in bar 44 did I hear 8 + 8.

3: Lack of a 'crown'. You can hear this very clearly in the second bar; there's a sudden jump, like a CD skipping. That's what it is, a skip. Those topmost notes must be clearly articulated. You gave the first bar (et al.!) a little over three beats! I noticed a strong tendency for you to try to balance the hastily shortened odd numbered bars (ascending) with hastily shortened even numbered ones (descending), that symmetry (albeit wrong) is what saved the performance. (Notice how the ascending arps. are in odd numbered bars and the descending arps. are in even numbered bars :D )

Oh my, look at the time! I'm goin' to sleep :P

OK, teacher hat is off.

(I still want to hear a half tempo recording) :lol:

PETE

Now if someone would explain to me how to play the violin...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:42 am 
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AHA! So you do know all the notes! I knew it! Technically, that was a hundred times better than the full speed. The only thing you need to do now, is not rush. 88 is your performance tempo for now, hold it at that tempo for a long time (six months) and add the indicated pedal, please. I know you want to, but you cannot go faster than this until you completely even out the rhythm, (set your metronome to 44 and play 8 sixteenth notes per click.) There is a solid physiological basis for a long 'slow practice' period of about two to four months followed by a few weeks of tempo increases and speedwork. (Look up The Krebs Cycle, lactate threshold, Vo2 max, isometric endurance and coordination of slow twitch muscle fibers with fast twitch muscle fibers...but that's another looooong story.)

PETE

p.s. No matter how goofy you might feel, count the beats out loud (or at least mouth them under your breath) You will be amazed at what this does.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:17 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am
Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
thanks Pete.

I thought you are in bed already. Well, 88 speed sound s good in chiniese...means...last for ever and get rich......(i should not get too carried away).

So i should start digging out my metronome set at 44 and do 8 1/16ths per click right. for 6 months...Yes. I will do it, it comes to metal agility. Anyway, now its the period fo rme to do a slow training as I should always do but lack of continuity. Thank Pete, you have gave me a big confidence boost. Meanwhile i am working on op10/2 as you suggested, but rather slugish.....I am still mastering op53 section by section. and op42, op31.


Thanks again and have a good night sleep.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:30 am 
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I'm glad for your progress! Indeed, a period of slow, controlled and most importantly, consistent practice must be used to the point of being firmly grasped by your long term memory. Take very careful notice, tempo increases attempted before this two to four month base building period will be tenuous and easily lost. If we have the forsight to apply a long consistent practice routine at a tempo in which you are in 100% control, when the time comes to increase tempo, your coordination and muscular strength will have been so well developed, addind speed will be easy.

PETE

I forgot one thing about the 10/1. On the thumbs, the wrist is at its lowest point. At each 'crown' the wrist it at it's highest point. When ascending, the wrist goes in tiny clockwise circles. When descending, the wrist makes tiny counterclockwise loops.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:41 am 
Quote:
I forgot one thing about the 10/1. On the thumbs, the wrist is at its lowest point. At each 'crown' the wrist it at it's highest point. When ascending, the wrist goes in tiny clockwise circles. When descending, the wrist makes tiny counterclockwise loops.


tru

This produces seemless legato and allows for blazing speed

but tires the $!@# out of one before the mid point

thats speaking of when its played at tempo and beyond


building up endurance is a neglected fact about this piece


it doesnt matter how many time you repeat it slowly


once you kick it up a few gears you run outta gas quick


anyone has any suggestion about endurance


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:15 pm 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
feed propery and do 5X slow laps.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:51 am 
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One more (and last) point. As robot pointed out in another post, the amount of finger articulation must be just right. Too much = cramped wrists. Too little = sloppyness. It's like riding a unicycle or juggling. Balance is key.

Pete


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