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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:27 am 
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Last edited by guybacos on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:47 am 
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Last edited by synergy543 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:48 am 
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synergy543 wrote:
And I've been here before if you want to check your internet logs.
That's interesting synergy543. Why does it say that you joined today (January 28, 2012) :?:. BTW to be clear, I am not an administrator. I have no problem with enginered sound, but engineered performance submitted to this community (except for newly composed works being judged as compostitions) is basically fraud. I'm perplexed why anyone would think or support otherwise. There is a real reason why people pause at the mention of the names of the great pianists. I'm not interested in a performance that someone can create or manipulate with computer programs. It's like those pitch-correctors that some singers need to sound better than they can actually sing, or worse, those groups that did nothing but lip-sinc. Why would anyone argue in support of such fraud, especially vehemently or with vitriol? I see now that Guy gave us a big clue (and very subtle disclosure) when he subtitled his submission as "(My interpretation)." Of course that's what each of us do that submit recordings of our playing, but never have to declare the obvious since it's understood. Guy gave us a chance to understand what was going on but presumed (rightly in my case) that the auditors wouldn't catch on for some time.
Oh, go practice!

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:04 am 
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@michaelv - Yes, I am 220 years old. And I look pretty damn hot for being so old, right? 8) But you on the other hand must be a mere child, maybe 15 at the most, right? At least that's what your stupid-ass comments reflect. I bet you are really some dumb fat moron with no social life and can only get his kicks by slamming people on Internet forums. No matter, I will leave your comments up because they are amusing, but you are correct in assuming that you will not stick around here for long. That's because I have now banned you. Bye-bye :lol:

@And synergy - Your first posting on the forum is rude! Don't you think an introduction would have been nice? What's up with that? Come on, get a life and learn some manners! But really, you don't know what the hell you are talking about either, so why don't you just go away too. I'll wait a bit and see if you get any more annoying before you are also banned. Then again...now I think that I do recognize you from an earlier username. You were a pain in the ass then too.

@Guy - All I will say to you is that I'm a little hurt by all this. We never gave you a hard time before and the only thing we are guilty of is speaking our minds. We administrators get to choose how and what we host on our main site, which is basically that we wish to host recordings made in a quasi-traditional mode - basically an acoustic piano and a recorder - that's it. It's pretty simple and not a big secret by a long-shot. But now you are prancing about with these two newbies and it's like the three of you think you can tell us how to run Piano Society. You should have stated right from the beginning that your recordings were midi-produced. That would have prevented all this trouble!! Don't worry, this is the last thing I will say to you on this thread and anywhere else on the forum. I wish you well with your music, but that's it from me....

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:17 am 
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Last edited by guybacos on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:46 am 
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If there ever was an discussion for the wonderful Chopin Etudes, or even the nice Vienna Imperial, it sank along with the Concordia. This thread would have been a perfect opportunity to discuss the ongoing debate of digital vs acoustic piano. All I've heard are unwarranted personal insults to the forum and its moderators with no reason(s) to support any claim(s). I don't know if one should even respond to this kind of childishness, but I firmly believe that our moderators are truthful and back up their claims with facts and knowledge, without resorting to into personal attacks. No one has any intentions with any products nor sponsors here. Come on, Techneut a DJ? Pianolady a 220 year old relic? Far be it! Needless to say, Techneut, Pianolady, and musicalmd, are authoritative in their assessment and knowledge of music, far better than I or most musicians for that matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:12 am 
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Last edited by guybacos on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:50 am 
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What a great discussion we have once more :wink:

musical-md wrote:
I must say, however, that the sudden presence on PS of two new people today, who are taking up your banner without hesitation (seeing that the Administrators are bothered by something) is highly suspicious to me.
I thought the same, it is more than coincidence. I'd think they were the same person, if not for Michael calling the other one Greg. Apparently they know each other - maybe they're the board of the Bacos fanclub.

Best not to comment on michaelv's venomous rant, seeing as he's already been banned (but I guess it would have been pointless even if he hadn't). Amazing how people can be so full of anger, denying us the right to have an opinion on what is appropriate for this site and what isn't. I do wonder where that comes from. As for synergy, yes that name rings a bell now - and not a good one. I guess he may be banned soon, too, or else leave in a cloud of hot air. I can't resist once more quoting Kaikoshru Sorabji in saying “Insects that are merely noisome like to think that they can also sting.” (I would have loved that guy, a pig-headed sarcastic bastard like me :lol: )

guybacos wrote:
I know there is nothing I can say that will make these administrators think differently. It's as if it comes from the finger, it's music from God, but if you dare manipulate a single note it doesn't count as good music anymore. At least not on Piano Society Forum. This IS the rule here. Chris has said it! BTW Chris, didn't you say you didn't like the first part of Christmas Chimes i had written? But a few months later you were wondering how come you didn't like then because now you like it. Interesting how people change their minds sometimes.
Of course people change their minds, if there is new evidence or circumstances changed, or sometimes just because we are human. Or one grows to like something he did not quite like the first time. I don't see what is the problem with that. As for manipulating a single note, that would not be so bad. I do that (very) occasionally when I can't get the last note or chord as pianissimo as it should be. It's as far as I go, apart from cutting out mistakes or using multiple takes. Of course everybody draws their own line here.

guybacos wrote:
I agree, but overall I think the mods came out a bit old fashion, and I think that's how they would like to stay from what I understand.
Probably. And is there anything wrong with that ? We do not aspire to be a site promoting the latest digital technologies. Rather a site that tries to stick to traditional playing. Maybe we're fighting a losing battle, it will have to be seen.

And yes, the admins do emphatically stick together in this respect. This is not a pre-meditated policy, but happens naturally because we feel strongly, and in the same way, about what we want the site to be. For anybody who can't respect that, this is probably not the right place to be.

Guy, producing a video recording does not really change our perception of your Chopin project. I did not mean to insinuate that you can't play, you probably can. I just found it strange that a good pianist chooses to present himself only through a project like this. But that is your choice ! And presenting only 'traditional' recordings (insofar as there's a definition of this) is our choice. Let that be the end of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:19 pm 
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Last edited by guybacos on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:39 pm 
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Will do, thanks.

Edit - Closed this thread because anything that could be said in a reasonable tone seems to have been said.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (My interpretation)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:48 pm 
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I've unlocked the thread as Guy indicated he wanted to change the title. The game is on again ! Round two, everyone's a winner :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:39 pm 
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Last edited by guybacos on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:00 pm 
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You'll have to put in the links again I'm afraid, as I took those out when I locked the thread.
And yeah, we know the drill about you being a good pianist... you said so many times, here and elsewhere :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:07 pm 
If you prefer I can put I'm a bad pianist. What would you like me to write that will make everybody happy? Tell me, and I will do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Guy, I feel like I've wasted too much of my valuable time trying to figure out your intentions. You went about this whole thing so badly. :x

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:34 pm 
I'm out of breath here, good bye!


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:57 pm 
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Chris and Monica,
Is it possible to expunge an entire thread? If so, no point preserving these skeletal remains. If not, I will be back to pick up these bones and discard them. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:59 pm 
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guybacos wrote:
I'm out of breath here, good bye!


Oh no... you leaving already ?

guybacos wrote:
If you prefer I can put I'm a bad pianist. What would you like me to write that will make everybody happy? Tell me, and I will do that.

I can think of one thing.

Do. Not. Pretend.

This would not "make everybody happy", as we still do not like manipulated music, but could at least restore some of your credibility.
Personally I'd leave it to others to decide if if I were a good pianist (after producing some plausible evidence).

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:02 pm 
If it makes you happy. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:04 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Chris and Monica,
Is it possible to expunge an entire thread? If so, no point preserving these skeletal remains. If not, I will be back to pick up these bones and discard them. :?

Expunge, I had to look that up :lol:
Yes we could have ditched the whole thing. But it's sort of fun, isn't it ? You should see the behemoth thread that blossomed at Piano World in a day's time ! I felt things were kinda boring here so decided to unlock the thread again. Don't follow it if you don't want to !

OTOH, if you have some bones to pick (do I understand correctly ?) by all means do so :)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:05 pm 
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guybacos wrote:
If it makes you happy. :D

Sure. I'm easily pleased :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:10 pm 
techneut wrote:
musical-md wrote:
Chris and Monica,
Is it possible to expunge an entire thread? If so, no point preserving these skeletal remains. If not, I will be back to pick up these bones and discard them. :?

Expunge, I had to look that up :lol:
Yes we could have ditched the whole thing. But it's sort of fun, isn't it ? You should see the behemoth thread that blossomed at Piano World in a day's time ! I felt things were kinda boring here so decided to unlock the thread again. Don't follow it if you don't want to !

OTOH, if you have some bones to pick (do I understand correctly ?) by all means do so :)


I've noticed Chris puts on his good side when he posts on PianoStreet, must be intimidated.

Anyway, as I mentioned on PianoStreet, for me it is the best piano forum around.

And pianoLady, what a shame I wasted your dear precious time. So sorry!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:30 pm 
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guybacos wrote:
I've noticed Chris puts on his good side when he posts on PianoStreet, must be intimidated.

Well, I'm an unknown newbie there and had no intention to start rubbing shoulders with the local bigshots. I only posted two short messages to try put in perspective some things that were said about what's been going on here at PS. On my best behavior, obviously.

guybacos wrote:
Anyway, as I mentioned on PianoStreet, for me it is the best piano forum around.

I can understand that. The place where you get the least flak is the place to be. Off ye go then !

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:42 pm 
guybacos wrote:
Anyway, as I mentioned on PianoStreet, for me it is the best piano forum around.

I can understand that. The place where you get the least flak is the place to be. Off ye go then ![/quote]

At least I have a reason to be getting some attention. :mrgreen:

Enjoy your forum in Yawnville.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:11 pm 
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guybacos wrote:
Enjoy your forum in Yawnville.

Thanks, we'll try. It will be boring without you though....
If you start a new thread on Piano World I'll come and watch. It's mighty entertaining.
That reminds me to check out all these kudos from concert pianists on your FB page :!:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:20 pm 
You make me feel like a star drawing all this attention to me, checking me everywhere I go, the forums I hang out, my FB wall. Of course, some will say, "get a life!", but that wouldn't be nice, would it?


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:09 am 
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Eddy, your expunging idea is good. I'll do more cleanup when I get home from work.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:15 am 
Well I fooled you guys with the 24 Études, so missioned accomplished. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:17 am 
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I guess one of the problems for the listener is that once you start from the perspective that these are edited midis, albeit ones initiated by a pianist's performance, it doesn't take much imagination to realise that the performance doesn't have to be good, accurate, a tempo or anything. It can all be done by edit thereafter. Now I'm not intending to imply that the OP can't play the piano, nor that there has been wholescale dishonesty going on, but frankly a competent sightreader could play through many of the etudes at quarter to half-tempo and let the editing do the rest. 25/6 really isn't that hard at slow tempi - it only becomes difficult when you approach the required speed. 25/10 at slow tempo is trivial. That nagging doubt surely hangs over most listeners' perception of the project.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:53 am 
andrew wrote:
I guess one of the problems for the listener is that once you start from the perspective that these are edited midis, albeit ones initiated by a pianist's performance, it doesn't take much imagination to realise that the performance doesn't have to be good, accurate, a tempo or anything. It can all be done by edit thereafter. Now I'm not intending to imply that the OP can't play the piano, nor that there has been wholescale dishonesty going on, but frankly a competent sightreader could play through many of the etudes at quarter to half-tempo and let the editing do the rest. 25/6 really isn't that hard at slow tempi - it only becomes difficult when you approach the required speed. 25/10 at slow tempo is trivial. That nagging doubt surely hangs over most listeners' perception of the project.


Hi Andrew,

Let's avoid the subject of how close my original versions were from the enhanced versions. Let's just talk about the process. My question to you is, do you believe there is a certain art in editing "artistically" some works such as the 24 Études or others of that caliber, and what value do you give it regardless of how close or far the original is from the final result?


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:15 am 
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Of course there can be artistic and/or creative merit in how you edit the initial takes: it should be obvious that one person might edit it and produce a thoroughly unmusical result whilst another person with superior musical sensibilities could produce something worthwhile. I'm afraid, however, that I can't ignore the question of how much enhancement has gone on: it seems to me that is an intrinsic hazard of the process being undertaken. Life is unfair as well, because it's very difficult for you to answer that question convincingly.

The other problem you have, as I see it, is that you have effectively almost unlimited editing capability and with that in mind some might consider it reasonable to expect that - if you have sufficient musical insight and editing skills - you might produce something which is a truly artistic interpretation and worthy of comparison with great recordings of yesteryear. I don't think you've done that (though I accept that what constitutes the above is a subjective matter): in part because in honesty I don't think the qualities of tone and colour are good enough. I suspect that pedalling may be an issue. I don't want to dismiss your efforts out of hand simply because of the context in which they have been made, but whilst there is merit in what you have done, to my mind there is also something missing.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:32 am 
First of all, I say they are competent recordings and on the interpretation side it's as good and better than some of the best recordings out there, because in some case, such as Op 25 No 6 (thirds) I don't think any pianist could reach that degree of softness and fluidity at that speed and in thirds, and too me, that's what makes this Étude, the same for Op. 25 No 2. But that's me. But I don't want to debate the wrong thing here, I was just interested in a final result that one would listen without knowing anything about it and sound like a credible good quality recording played live. Now, of course, it doesn't have the same color as a real piano, but I wasn't trying to go that far. I can hear the difference myself, the lack of overtones, color, timbre, etc I know it's not the same. so there should be clear nuances between what I expected and what people thought I expected.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:53 am 
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I'm not sure I would agree with the sentiments about interpretation in your first sentence which I find a rather sweeping statement. Listen to Friedman's 25/6. However, you're right, that is probably a side-issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:08 am 
Ok, so his version is excellent although with a very annoying hiss. But what are you getting at with this?


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:12 am 
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I'm using his recording as a comment on what you said about 25/6. Plus in more general terms it might be of interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:34 am 
Well we differ, for you that example may mean a lot, but for me, no.

Guy


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:40 am 
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Quote:
Of course there can be artistic and/or creative merit in how you edit the initial takes: it should be obvious that one person might edit it and produce a thoroughly unmusical result whilst another person with superior musical sensibilities could produce something worthwhile. I'm afraid, however, that I can't ignore the question of how much enhancement has gone on: it seems to me that is an intrinsic hazard of the process being undertaken. Life is unfair as well, because it's very difficult for you to answer that question convincingly.

The other problem you have, as I see it, is that you have effectively almost unlimited editing capability and with that in mind some might consider it reasonable to expect that - if you have sufficient musical insight and editing skills - you might produce something which is a truly artistic interpretation and worthy of comparison with great recordings of yesteryear. I don't think you've done that (though I accept that what constitutes the above is a subjective matter): in part because in honesty I don't think the qualities of tone and colour are good enough. I suspect that pedalling may be an issue. I don't want to dismiss your efforts out of hand simply because of the context in which they have been made, but whilst there is merit in what you have done, to my mind there is also something missing.


Call me a philistine, but I don't think there's much at issue. Midi-editing has as its goal the making of an interesting, convincing, and aesthetically pleasing final product. That's not unlike the goal of a piano performance. So the end product, one might say, is the same.

What is clearly different is the PROCESS or means of arriving at the end-result. Pianists analyze and practice at the piano to realize a particular conception (to put the process in very general terms). Midi artists also have a conception... but they arrive at it by a fundamentally different process: manipulating note intensity ("velocity), duration, pitch, and tempo.

Many pianists say "Midi is a Cheat." Well, that's only the case if you try to pass off midi manipulation as practice at the piano. The latter is, in my own view, more difficult, much more time-consuming, but also more rewarding and fun. (That's a personal judgement.) It has, I think, higher social status for sure. So it is very tempting for midi-artists to suggest that much of their work is simply playing in the piece at a high standard, at the outset. The midi-editing is 10%, at best. That may be the case. But, quite significantly as you suggest above, it may NOT be the case. And to be honest, once you start midi-editing, the slope away from the initial recorded performance is very slippery. As well, it is really IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL, on the basis of the finished product, how much is midi editing and how much is the midi-artist's pianist ability.

Of course, the really important thing about midi-editing is that one need not have ANY piano skills at all. One can always step input a Chopin Nocturne, note by note, and start editing towards a convincing mock-up from there.

Ergo: piano technique is a sufficient condition of making a midi interpretation of Chopin (for example) but by no means a necessary one.

The conclusion follows easily that where a site like this one (and others) exists to discuss the PROCESS of making music at the piano, that discussion cannot benefit in any necessary way from a conversation with a midi artist. To the extent that the artist is a pianist by training AND exploits some of the relevant principles of piano performance in his midi-editing, there can be useful discussion, I suppose. But the all important physical aspect of technical analysis, so central to piano technique, cannot of course be discussed, because the midi-artist does not physically train at the piano or make technical changes to a piece at the keyboard. His or her "keyboard" is at the computer, not at the piano.

JG


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:23 am 
johnlewisgrant wrote:

Of course, the really important thing about midi-editing is that one need not have ANY piano skills at all. One can always step input a Chopin Nocturne, note by note, and start editing towards a convincing mock-up from there.



JG


You said a lot of interesting things. For now I just want to address this statement you made. I have to say that is not true. Technically I imagine it's possible, but I've yet to hear a Chopin piece programmed with the mouse, from A to Z, and that sounded credible to my ears. In my process after the recording of a passage, if the expression isn't there or I don't feel it, it's almost a lost cause, no amounts of mouse clicks will save it. So for me the initial recording is critical and must have all the expression there before even touching your mousse.

I agree very much with what you said about anything we alter of a played passage is a very dangerous slope, and this is where the art on enhancing a passage comes in.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:03 am 
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guybacos wrote:
johnlewisgrant wrote:

Of course, the really important thing about midi-editing is that one need not have ANY piano skills at all. One can always step input a Chopin Nocturne, note by note, and start editing towards a convincing mock-up from there.



JG


You said a lot of interesting things. For now I just want to address this statement you made. I have to say that is not true. Technically I imagine it's possible, but I've yet to hear a Chopin piece programmed with the mouse, from A to Z, and that sounded credible to my ears. In my process after the recording of a passage, if the expression isn't there or I don't feel it, it's almost a lost cause, no amounts of mouse clicks will save it. So for me the initial recording is critical and must have all the expression there before even touching your mousse.

I agree very much with what you said about anything we alter of a played passage is a very dangerous slope, and this is where the art on enhancing a passage comes in.


I have personally encountered plenty of mechanical Chopin midi files: we don't like them (and that's putting it kindly), but believe or not, many listeners do! Since music (and all art) is a matter of personal taste, I can't fault them, I can only provide alternatives and hope for the best! (This is less a difficulty for Bach's music, some think; it seems to wear different garb quite happily.)

But, you see, we are focussing on the PRODUCT in this instance, when we talk about WHAT sounds good, as opposed to HOW it is made to sound good.
In THAT respect, what pianists at THIS site are mainly interested in is the PROCESS, the pianist's TECHNIQUE if you will, not the technique of the midi-artist (who may or may not be a gifted pianist). That's just a pragmatic thing, not a matter of principle. It's not saying, in other words, "we have no respect for midi" (although that may be true); it's just saying "Midi technique is not our bag here at Piano Society".

JG


Last edited by johnlewisgrant on Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:07 am 
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johnlewisgrant wrote:
it's just saying "Midi technique is not our bag here at Piano Society".
JG


Right on :!: :)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:09 am 
Got it!


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:41 am 
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guybacos wrote:
My question to you is, do you believe there is a certain art in editing "artistically" some works such as the 24 Études or others of that caliber, and what value do you give it regardless of how close or far the original is from the final result?
This is not pianism, and it isn't real. Just because the original project was done by someone who can play the piano, or on a subject of great value, in no way transmits warrant or validity to the end product. This is like so many other pretensions in society today. We know what a sound engineer is. What you are doing is performance engineering. Everyone knows the sound engineer is not the performing artist; a performance engineer is not a performing artist. No piano student would go to a performing engineer to learn the piano, but a performance engineering student can go to a pianist to learn musicianship -- but only of the particular works investigated! After that, the performance engineer knows nothing again. In your case you may embody both functions, but only one is a performing art, the other is a technical, artificial and pretensious application. This is artificial because it does not test against the limits of human capacity, just imagination. I continually suffer disapointment due to the difference between my imagination and my capacity and work hard to close the gap. A performance engineer never need work hard, just more. Just because we love [science] fiction, doesn't mean it's real. In fact, this is what you are attempting to sell: fictional music. Imagine fictional dance or fictional sculpture or fictional painting. No one will value fictional perfroming arts, at least not artists (except by deception).

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Last edited by musical-md on Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:46 am 
Ok, well I was already told that samples isn't your thing here, so we'll leave it at that.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:49 am 
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guybacos wrote:
because in some case, such as Op 25 No 6 (thirds) I don't think any pianist could reach that degree of softness and fluidity at that speed and in thirds,

Behold the hand of God! Be amazed and wonder with genuine awe at the possibility of a great artist!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XCj-j7TBTY



No apology for my bias here. 8)

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:03 am 
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musical-md wrote:
guybacos wrote:
because in some case, such as Op 25 No 6 (thirds) I don't think any pianist could reach that degree of softness and fluidity at that speed and in thirds,

Behold the hand of God! Be amazed and wonder with genuine awe at the possibility of a great artist!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XCj-j7TBTY
No apology for my bias here. 8)
Lhévinne's fluidity rivals the spilling of liquid mercury over the keyboard... No MIDI in 1935; not until 1983.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:18 am 
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insecure anybody.


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:33 am 
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Frankly, I was dismayed by Guy's posting. I might be called a purist or reactionary (or worse), but I personally don't believe that MIDI realizations have a legitimate role to play as piano performances at Piano Society. In Guy's initial post he did not at the outset mention "MIDI realizations" (it was only added later once controversy erupted). It was instead implied to be postings of actual piano performances. Without the benefit of that caveat of MIDI realizations , it was misleading to say the very least. The real agenda was Vienna Imperial 1.1 software, that is to say, promoting a commercial product.

Bottom line, I know that accomplished pianists put a huge amount of work into preparing repertoire for recordings. They use their piano technique to convey musical intent, mental imagery and emotion to interpret the music and serve the composer, and to put it across to an audience. If there is any post-editing required, pianists here keep it to an absolute minimum.

Playing the piano is a lofty endeavor, one steeped in rich traditions and performance practices. So when one sits at a PC using note sampling, sequencers, etc. to construct a mechanical MIDI performance, and then have the audacity to consider it as artistic, authentic pianism, personally I draw the line which is why I refute it here. I believe that for many of the serious pianists here, a MIDI realization not immediately acknowledged as such in a posting is an affront to the performing art and to those who work so hard to produce quality, authentic recordings.

Because we humans are mere mortals, we never produce perfection in our piano playing as much as we strive to attain it. Horowitz used to say that if a pianist could draw close enough just once in his career to almost be able to reach out and touch perfection (but not quite), it would be a lifetime achievement. But he added that attaining perfection would itself be imperfection. As much as we admired Michelangeli's precision, he was never satisfied with his own performances. Yet with the computerized capabilities of MIDI, synthetic perfection is now at hand to be pawned off on its listeners as true performing art. Until there is not a single tree left standing anywhere in the world from which to fashion a piano, I reject MIDI realizations. At best they might be electronic constructs mimicking the real art of piano, but true art they will never be!

David

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Last edited by Rachfan on Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:40 am 
Ok, let's say there's a piano work you have been listening to for the last 3 years, and love it! Then someone tells you: "Surprise, it's been dome through midi samples!"
Are you then going to reject this piece and never listen to it again now that you have this knowledge?


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:11 am 
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guybacos wrote:
Ok, let's say there's a piano work you have been listening to for the last 3 years, and love it! Then someone tells you: "Surprise, it's been dome through midi samples!"
Are you then going to reject this piece and never listen to it again now that you have this knowledge?

If I didn't know better by now I'd almost think you were starting to understand :D

I would happily listen to a good midi rendition if it was a work that nobody played, or perhaps nobody could play well enough. To get to know a work, there is nothing wrong with artificial rendering. But to pick a set that is so well-known, has been recorded so marvellously by so many great pianists, and then claim that they are as good or even better than any of these interpretation-wise, smacks of deceit and pretense. That you may have played many of these in concert, as you claim, does change anything to that. I do not believe that any serious pianist who can perform Chopin etudes in concert would sit down at the computer and spend countless hours to create an idealized e-version of them. I also can't believe that any serious pianist would take this enterprise seriously, except maybe from a purely technical view if they are interested in that kind of thing.

IIRC you wrote on Piano World that you had received very positive feedback on FaceBook from many people including concert pianists.
Being the suspicious-minded stalker without a life that I am, I immediately go check that of course. The adulating oneliner raves are funny, but more funny are the repeated calls for concert pianists to come forward. None did so far and I do not expect anybody will. There is the deceit thing again, which is why I can not take any of this seriously anymore. It may be me but I can not engage with someone I cannot trust. Not very objective, eh :?:

But I won't kill the thread this time as long as it does not get too violent.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin's 24 Études (new approach on the realization)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:53 am 
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guybacos wrote:
Ok, let's say there's a piano work you have been listening to for the last 3 years, and love it! Then someone tells you: "Surprise, it's been dome through midi samples!"
Are you then going to reject this piece and never listen to it again now that you have this knowledge?


Personally, I wouldn't. I'd be impressed that someone had made midi sound that good. Sorry, but (due to the limitations of colour etc, which you yourself acknowledge) your recording is not at that level.


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