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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:11 pm 
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I recall Frescobaldi from Keyboard Lit. There was something important about him...I think I had to write something about him on an exam. Maybe just that he was one of the first well-known keyboard composers? I think it was something more than that. Wish I could remember. Gordon and Kirby are not helpful. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:44 am 
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Terez wrote:
I recall Frescobaldi from Keyboard Lit. There was something important about him...I think I had to write something about him on an exam. Maybe just that he was one of the first well-known keyboard composers? I think it was something more than that. Wish I could remember. Gordon and Kirby are not helpful. :(


[from Wikipedia - the article has numerous sources.]
"Frescobaldi was the first of the great composers of the ancient Franco-Netherlandish-Italian tradition who chose to focus his creative energy on instrumental composition."

"Contemporary critics acknowledged Frescobaldi as the single greatest trendsetter of keyboard music of their time."

"Frescobaldi's work was known to, and influenced numerous major composers outside Italy, including Henry Purcell, Johann Pachelbel, and Johann Sebastian Bach. Bach is known to have owned a number of Frescobaldi's works, including a manuscript copy of Frescobaldi's Fiori musicali (Venice, 1635), which he signed and dated 1714 and performed in Weimar the same year. Frescobaldi's influence on Bach is most evident in his early choral preludes for organ."

(Anyone who was an influence on Bach must be big.)

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:07 am 
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It never ceases to amaze me how well-informed Bach was about the music of his time (as well as the time past). That for someone who never went outside his neck of the woods. And while probably well recognizing he was greater than anybody else, how sincerely he seems to have admired others' works. To me that is just another feather in old JSB's cap.

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:21 am 
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techneut wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how well-informed Bach was about the music of his time (as well as the time past). That for someone who never went outside his neck of the woods. And while probably well recognizing he was greater than anybody else, how sincerely he seems to have admired others' works. To me that is just another feather in old JSB's cap.


What makes Bach great is that he was not aware of it: he just had a job to do and a family reputation to uphold.

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:09 am 
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richard66 wrote:
What makes Bach great is that he was not aware of it: he just had a job to do and a family reputation to uphold.

IMO he was far too intelligent, eagle-eyed and ambitious NOT to be aware of it. Yet at the same time he was a humble servant of music, God, and family. I doubt that a more extraordinary person will ever be born. What a great pity we know so little of him. If only he'd had more time to write letters....

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:45 pm 
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RSPIll wrote:
Terez wrote:
I recall Frescobaldi from Keyboard Lit. There was something important about him...I think I had to write something about him on an exam. Maybe just that he was one of the first well-known keyboard composers? I think it was something more than that. Wish I could remember. Gordon and Kirby are not helpful. :(


[from Wikipedia - the article has numerous sources.]

I had already looked at the Wikipedia page, but nothing jogged my memory.

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:49 pm 
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techneut wrote:
richard66 wrote:
What makes Bach great is that he was not aware of it: he just had a job to do and a family reputation to uphold.

IMO he was far too intelligent, eagle-eyed and ambitious NOT to be aware of it. Yet at the same time he was a humble servant of music, God, and family. I doubt that a more extraordinary person will ever be born. What a great pity we know so little of him. If only he'd had more time to write letters....

Yeah, there are definitely some indications that he knew his worth as a composer. The strange part is that he made no real attempt to market himself as such - at least, not like his contemporary Handel. Bach published some few things, but only in Germany if I'm not mistaken. And he lived at a time before German music was widely revered; that didn't really happen until the Viennese trio of the Industrial Revolution, when the common man had money in his pocket for the first time.

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:21 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Yeah, there are definitely some indications that he knew his worth as a composer. The strange part is that he made no real attempt to market himself as such - at least, not like his contemporary Handel. Bach published some few things, but only in Germany if I'm not mistaken. And he lived at a time before German music was widely revered; that didn't really happen until the Viennese trio of the Industrial Revolution, when the common man had money in his pocket for the first time.

I'd like to think that Bach, unlike Handel who probably reveled in his wealth and fame, had no desire to be rich and famous for the sake of it. Only to have a solid and decently paid position that allowed him to feed his family and cater for his musical expenses. I suppose we should be grateful for that, his legacy would not be the same quality had he played for the gallery - which is not to say a bad word about Handel of course :)

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:20 am 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
Yeah, there are definitely some indications that he knew his worth as a composer. The strange part is that he made no real attempt to market himself as such - at least, not like his contemporary Handel. Bach published some few things, but only in Germany if I'm not mistaken. And he lived at a time before German music was widely revered; that didn't really happen until the Viennese trio of the Industrial Revolution, when the common man had money in his pocket for the first time.

I'd like to think that Bach, unlike Handel who probably reveled in his wealth and fame, had no desire to be rich and famous for the sake of it. Only to have a solid and decently paid position that allowed him to feed his family and cater for his musical expenses. I suppose we should be grateful for that, his legacy would not be the same quality had he played for the gallery - which is not to say a bad word about Handel of course :)


Bach's desire was to write church music as he felt that it should be written. He actually took a pay cut to take the job in Leipzig, but the church that he played for in Mulhausen was led by a Pietist. The pietist movement believed that music should be simple and I believe that they wanted little to do with instrumental music. In any case it was not a good situation for a musician like Bach.

Bach's music is imbued with his faith and spiritual beliefs. Even his secular instrumental works (e.g. WTC) are written with an eye toward God. He gives the outward sign by inscribing the beginning of many such works with "JJ" (Jesu Judi - "with Jesus' help") and SDG (Soli Deo Gloria - "For God's Glory Alone"), but he also does so in the actual music. He also writes his faith and beliefs into the music. The C# minor fugue #4 of WTC1 is filled with the musical expression of the cross (the circulatio, of which the "B-A-C-H" theme belongs) as well as identifying himself with the musical symbols of the cross and crucifixion (the lament motive) by using both his name motive as well as his numbers (14 - the sum of the letters of "B+A+C+H" and 41 - the sum of the letters "J+S+B+A+C+H". (If anyone is interested in this, here is a web page that discusses these ideas <http://www2.nau.edu/tas3/wtc/i04.html#movie>.

Handel on the other hand was a businessman as well as a composer. His oratorios, though on sacred (or at least religious) subjects were written to make money. They were cheaper to produce and stage and could be written in English (for some strange reason, people expected Italian Opera to be in Italian) and therefore could appeal to a larger segment of the people -- not just the nobility but also the rising business class with money to spend on entertainment.

In a strange way, Handel's sacred works were essentially secular while in Bach, the sacred could be found in the secular.

Oh, well, I'm rambling on.

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:42 pm 
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Chris wrote:
I'd like to think that Bach, unlike Handel who probably reveled in his wealth and fame, had no desire to be rich and famous for the sake of it. Only to have a solid and decently paid position that allowed him to feed his family and cater for his musical expenses. I suppose we should be grateful for that, his legacy would not be the same quality had he played for the gallery - which is not to say a bad word about Handel of course :)

Eh, I don't think Bach wanted to be rich and famous either. I just wonder why he made no real attempt to get his music out there; it's less about fame and money and more about sharing his music with the wider world. I don't believe it was modesty.

RSPIll wrote:
Bach's desire was to write church music as he felt that it should be written.

I was taught that he didn't write much religious music when he wasn't required to; he wrote much of the published keyboard music when he had a secular job. I'm not trying to say that he didn't enjoy writing religious music, but I don't think it was his sole driving passion, either. Everyone was religious then, and IMO it doesn't mean much. So many people seem to think that, because Bach was pious, therefore God blessed him with his talent. I find it hard to believe he was more pious than many people with no talent. His comments on the instrumental works might be compared to the unbelievably ass-kissing way he dealt with Frederick the Great.

I've never read a Bach biography aside from Forkel (fairly useless; the edition I read had more footnotes than normal text), but I ordered Wolff last week. Hopefully it will come in soon, along with a collection of Bach documents that I'm looking forward to perusing.

Quote:
Handel on the other hand was a businessman as well as a composer.

Probably more importantly, Handel had nothing tying him to Germany - no wife or kids. I gather that there were few ways for a man to avoid marriage without losing social status, and in Protestant Germany, the clergy was not one of them. So why not go to London and make a career? It's not as if he had anything better to do, and I gather the opportunities were fewer in Germany.

Quote:
His oratorios, though on sacred (or at least religious) subjects were written to make money.

As were Bach's, to be sure. That was his job.

(I'm betting some of this post will come off as offensive, so I apologize in advance; I have a tendency to say what's on my mind.)

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:16 am 
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Hey,
I really enjoyed the playing---it's not every day I see Frescobaldi recordings online.
I do have one tiny comment, and that is that I think you could pull off the ending as a little more dramatic. Possibly playing with time, even if very slightly?

It was very nice, however. I definitely enjoyed hearing that. thanks for the post.
Rich

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:50 am 
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Another nice little discovery, Chris. Will Cesar Franck be in the picture?...

Techneut wrote:
Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how well-informed Bach was about the music of his time (as well as the time past). That for someone who never went outside his neck of the woods. And while probably well recognizing he was greater than anybody else, how sincerely he seems to have admired others' works. To me that is just another feather in old JSB's cap.
Bach will always be an enigma - he will remain poised to be rediscovered for all future generations. -George

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:41 am 
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RichNocturne wrote:
I really enjoyed the playing---it's not every day I see Frescobaldi recordings online.
I do have one tiny comment, and that is that I think you could pull off the ending as a little more dramatic. Possibly playing with time, even if very slightly?

It was very nice, however. I definitely enjoyed hearing that. thanks for the post.
Rich

Thanks Rich. My execution of the closing bars doesn't really convince me either. I was a bit pressed for time. I may well redo this recording while it's fresh in memory.

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:43 am 
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88man wrote:
Another nice little discovery, Chris. Will Cesar Franck be in the picture?...

Nope... Not with the little time I allow for the organ these days. To be honest, I have no inclination to the French Organ Romantics as yet. It would require a different kind or organ anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:12 pm 
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I never heard of Frescobaldi.I really liked it-organ tone is nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Frescobaldi - Canzona in D minor
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:33 pm 
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dileomusic wrote:
I never heard of Frescobaldi.I really liked it-organ tone is nice.

Thanks ! yes it is quite a nice little organ. A bit limited in its possibilities though.

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