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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:13 pm 
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That's neat! Although I don't think I could handle having to edit yet another dimension...haha.


Yes, seems, that I´m the dangerous man from the other dimension! :lol: But seriously now: I´m really enthused by 3d-fotos and -films. With my Fuji Real 3d W3 I can make fotos and videos in 3d and I can watch them them on my Panasonic TV (with 3d-glasses). These fotos are so real memorials, it´s fantastic. I´m looking now, if it´s possible to post 3d-videos on YouTube and to watch them in 3d with glasses. May be one nice day I can make my first piano-video in 3d.

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So I gave up and did all the audio syncing in Sony Vegas, which really does all the same things that Audition does, plus I could drag the files around more easily.


I see now, that you have had some difficulties and if the Sony Vegas does it in a better way, why not use it, of course.

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Now I'm wondering about another thing: Do audio files play the same way for everybody? Meaning, does the computer, Internet connection, device or whatever, alter the way audio files play for people? For me, on my computer, the audio files sounded pretty well in-sync, but seems like it's not for you and some other people here.


I could imagine, that the speed of the internet connection could make a video out of sync, but I´m no expert concerning these matters. I suppose, prinicipally it could be possible, that these technical conditions could change the files. I also think, the idea of Scott is a good one. I will try to download your video with RealPlayer and see, if something has changed.

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:37 pm 
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o.k., I have done it. Seems that the video (March no. 1) downloaded with Real Player is a bit out of sync like the one on YouTube. So, I suppose it´s in the original and not falsified by the "technique". There still are some small places, the synchronization isn´t perfect. But may be that´s nitpicking now (which we love to do here so much :lol: ). So, please, don´t care about remarks, if you think, they are not important. That would be al right, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:35 pm 
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I'm also not an expert on this sort of technical problem, but I could believe that not all audio or video codecs respond equally well to the youtube conversion process. I used to use Windows Movie Maker, and found some problems with sound distortion under certain circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:02 am 
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Hi Monica, Chris, and George,

Who knew that Granados composed military marches? They're both high spirited and charming too--fine playing all around. Monica, you really worked magic to get everything so coordinated and in synch. (Nothing is ever perfect, but it was all perfect enough for me. :)) The special effects were great too. Very entertaining!

David

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:59 am 
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Thanks everyone for the great comments. There are some newcomers with whom I hope to make their acquaintance soon... :D

Sarah, how's the recorder working out?... Pantelis, how's the photography and jazz going?... I'll be going to Greece in 2012... Chris, are you still recording on the organ?... David, keep your ears open for those buoys - I'll be getting the sailboat ready in 3 weeks on Cape Cod!...

Monica, Andreas is right. I think it's an audio synching issue in certain areas. Monica, why don't you send me an audio file of YOUR tracks. Otherwise you'll go crazy. :P I'll see where and whose part needs editing. Remember, I re-recorded my part after a 12hr work day, so it's probably me that's off?! Let's see if we can fix this. I am starting to practice again after a few years... I am taking care of unfinished business - pieces that were started, but never completed so long ago in a galaxy, far, far away... :P

Andreas, you must have version 6 or later - My version of WaveLab 5 doesn't allow for multitracks, otherwise it would be much easier to add markers, time stretch/compress to make everything fit, and then mix everything down to two tracks. I wonder if WaveLab 7 is just as easy?... I have Cakewalk Sonar 6 and Logic Pro 8, but they're very cumbersome for editing individual tracks.

Anyone wishing to do videos, Sony Vegas Pro 10 is great software, thanks to Monica's advice - much easier to use than Final Cut which is Apple based.

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:33 am 
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My internet is out again. I'll write to you guys tomorrow when I'm at work. I'm using my cell phone now....

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:26 am 
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88man wrote:
Pantelis, how's the photography and jazz going?... I'll be going to Greece in 2012...

George, it's been a while. Congratulations for this recording. I really enjoyed the video and your sound was superb.

I'm afraid jazz is a little left behind nowadays. Too much work, too little time. Photographically, I'm in a better shape though. Last month I was in Venice (for the Rigoletto at La Fenice) and I took some pictures. By the way, I'll be in Hofleur (Normandie) for the Easter week. I don't know if anyone else from PS will be there. It would be nice to meet. Watch out, as I plan to take many pictures from Satie's house.


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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:48 am 
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wiser_guy wrote:
Watch out, as I plan to take many pictures from Satie's house.

His house must have a very good view :P

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Last night I started re-editing the Marcha 2 - for some reason, that one was harder to sync - probably because 'somebody' wore the wrong shirt (not me...haha). Anyway, I've also been reading up on syncing audio and video files and now I'd like to try out some new programs. George - I'm not quite ready to give up the ship yet. But if I do not make any substantial improvements, I'll send you my files. I just need a little time - I don't have to work tomorrow, so maybe I can make good progress in the upcoming days.

p.s. Thanks, David. :)

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:59 pm 
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88man wrote:
Sarah, how's the recorder working out?

Thanks for asking... it's going great! :D Been spending as much time as I can with it between piano and classwork. Our little recorder ensemble plans to have a concert this fall, and we're enjoying practicing Bach for that.

Good to see you around here again!! Seems like you have some exciting things planned on your end... sailing on Cape Cod and a trip to the Mediterranean sound fantastic, as does being able to get back into playing again. I bet it's a great feeling to have a little time at the keyboard. :D

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:06 pm 
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88man wrote:
Quote:
Monica, Andreas is right. I think it's an audio synching issue in certain areas.


I´m so glad, that someone agrees to me. You know, I´m just quite nitpicking concerning these matters of synchronization also concerning my own editing works and I don´t would like to count, how many hours I have spent in my life until now with fumbling around on such sync-problems. (Too much, I´m sure!) And though I always am very nitpicking with myself, my videos also are not always perfect concerning synchronization... :?
Apart from my nitpicking-attitude concerning the audio-editing I would like to repeat, that in summary you have done a very good work here and it´s a pleasure to listen to inspite of the little sync-problems, which in reality also can easily happen, btw! (Especially if two persons play together, which don´t play very often together.)

Quote:
Andreas, you must have version 6 or later - My version of WaveLab 5 doesn't allow for multitracks, otherwise it would be much easier to add markers, time stretch/compress to make everything fit, and then mix everything down to two tracks. I wonder if WaveLab 7 is just as easy?... I have Cakewalk Sonar 6 and Logic Pro 8, but they're very cumbersome for editing individual tracks.


Yes, I have purchased WaveLab 6.0, but before I also have used version 5. Would really be interesting to know something about version 7. Cakewalk and Logic Pro I don´t know, but I have heard, that Logic Pro should be a quite good program, though you don´t seem to acknowledge that.
I really would like to tried out Sony Vegas. Seems to be a very good program.

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Last edited by musicusblau on Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:08 pm 
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wiser_guy wrote:
Quote:
Watch out, as I plan to take many pictures from Satie's house.


Wow, would it be possible to share some of these pictures with us? I would be very interested in them!

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:13 pm 
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musicusblau wrote:
And though I always am very anal with myself,

Cripes ! That is just disgusting :shock: :roll: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:20 pm 
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techneut wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
And though I always am very anal with myself,

Cripes ! That is just disgusting :shock: :roll: :lol:


In the leo-online-dictionary I found "anal" as familiar word for the german word "pingelig" (can also be translated with "nitpicking"), but better I will change this expression above, for that members, who are not familiar with the familiar english expressions (like you?) don´t come to false conclusions! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:35 pm 
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@Monica:
I would like to thank you, that you have added our Symphony of Farewell together with your new Granados-marches on the main-page with the nice explanations to them.
ImageI really appreciate that und I think, our nice experiments were (are) really creative and as such they are a beautiful and individual "store sign" for our Pianosociety homepage! And I think, they could be something unique or one-of-a-kind in music-history generally, at least I don´t know anyone, who has done a similar project until now. I only know some experiments on YouTube, in which people have recorded several tracks of themselves and have overlayed them, also with video. (I hope, I don´t seem too unmodest with my statements here.)
I only have seen that today, because I don´t look to often on the main-page. I mostly log in directly to the forums.

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:54 pm 
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musicusblau wrote:
In the leo-online-dictionary I found "anal" as familiar word for the german word "pingelig" (can also be translated with "nitpicking"), but better I will change this expression above, for that members, who are not familiar with the familiar english expressions (like you?) don´t come to false conclusions! :wink:

Ah right :!: I didn't know anal is an alias for pingelig (although I suspected it somewhat).
I just googled it and got a bit of a shock :P

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:35 pm 
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@Andreas - you're welcome. I didn't mention that to anyone - I just quietly put up that information.

Regarding the syncing - I am pretty nitpicky too and tried hard to get these two videos together. The other day I read about a program called Plural Eyes that is is supposed to automatically sync up audio and video files. Sounded so great and I was very excited to try it, which I did last night. But it didn't work :(. I tried a million different things and then gave up on it. Then I went back to square one and redid the entire no. 2 video and thought I got a better sync between the audio files. So I brought the new audio file into the video and then rendered it three different ways - one with the audio in wav format and a 3mbps template, one with audio in mp3 format and 3mbps template, and one with audio in mp3 and 512kbps template. I uploaded all three videos onto Youtube to see if any of the three would look better in sync (I have them in 'private viewing' setting so nobody sees them on my channel). The result is that none of them look any better than the original video, so that's it....I now give up totally!

Chris and George - sorry if these videos did not come out as perfect as you would have liked. George, I can't send you my audio files because I can't find them. Some files disappeared - or probably I'm going crazy and forgot where I put them.

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Pantelis, I think La Fenice is a hidden gem - much more cozy than La Scala. That must have been an excellent performance! I won't be in Honfleur, but will be in the South of France in September if anyone's there?... :P The Houses of Satie are very interesting, but don't miss out on the port and estuary of the Seine River for amazing landscape photography!

Thanks Sarah. I try to fool myself into thinking that winters are for working, and summers are for sailing, and travel. I am trying to squeeze music between the two. :)

Andreas, if you have WaveLab 6, don't bother with 7 - more menus to go through to do the same thing on certain functions. Version 6 is the best audio editing software! Leave it to the Germans to design something right! As for Logic Pro, I use it as a workstation to create ensemble music, and synthesize new sounds, and create new tracks. It's not so intuitive and easy to navigate like WaveLab for 2 track editing. However, I've got a new plug-in from Vienna Sound Library - Konzerthaus Organ, which is a digital recreation of the Rieger Organ in Vienna's Konzerthaus. I am curious to use it in Logic Pro - I've heard Bach on it and the fidelity of sound is amazing!

Monica, "Power... Power... Count to 10... OK, maybe 20... :P Certain big programs and workstations, like Sony Vegas Pro, automatically create project folders for working files - check those other folders. If you ever want to search for files in a sea of folders, try downloading a program called "Everything." It makes "lost" file searches a snap. When you bought your computer, was your hard disk partitioned? I place all my program files in C-drive and all my docs in D-drive. It makes searches much easier. PLUS, I save my docs on an external HD full-time. If your hard disk is not partitioned, just get another 500GB-1TB hard disk and make that your docs drive, and use the old disk for programs only. I don't use my new computer for internet unless I am updating. I use my 5 year old computer for the internet, and that way all potential viruses are quarantined on one machine that I could care less about, whereas the new computer stays pure as a vestil virgin... Don't panic yet, the files will turn up when you least expect it. :wink: Let me know.

Happy Easter to everyone! :D

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:28 am 
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88man wrote:
...whereas the new computer stays pure as a vestil virgin...

Who needs a computer if you have......

I guess that I won't finish that thought. 8)

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:05 am 
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If you have a what...?
Go ahead, finish your thought, Scott. I could use the diversion... :arrow:
(what is that arrow thing for anyway? :lol: )

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:18 pm 
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88man wrote:
Quote:
Version 6 is the best audio editing software! Leave it to the Germans to design something right!


I have not the comparison to all audio editing softwares, but I could imagine it is the best, it has very much features and is quite intuitively to handle and that montage-window is great. I also don´t know another program, which is able to create DVD-Audio-files, what I do from time to time with my recordings. On DVD-Audio you are able to save your recordings in 192 Khz, 24 bit-quality and you can replay them on a DVD-Audio/SACD-player.

Quote:
As for Logic Pro, I use it as a workstation to create ensemble music, and synthesize new sounds, and create new tracks. It's not so intuitive and easy to navigate like WaveLab for 2 track editing. However, I've got a new plug-in from Vienna Sound Library - Konzerthaus Organ, which is a digital recreation of the Rieger Organ in Vienna's Konzerthaus. I am curious to use it in Logic Pro - I've heard Bach on it and the fidelity of sound is amazing!


Very interesting, did you try out the free Bricasti-ambiences, btw? I think, Didier has put a link here to them a longer time ago...

I also wish a happy Easter to you and to all others here!
Image

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:54 pm 
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I nominate Andreas to get the "Most Creative Animated Smilies Award." :P

Hi Andreas, as tempting as the Bricasti M7 IR samples are, I haven't been able to integrate them well into Space Designer found in Logic Pro. Altiverb might be a better software choice, but it's much more difficult to set up seamlessly in stereo IR. As with many software reverbs, the audio quality suffers as reverb is added. For 2 channel recording, convolution reverb is OK, but for complex multiple mic recording in an ensemble, IR's don't integrate and blend into the sound in an organic and transparent way. They draw too much attention to themselves as the mic count goes up and you can tell that the reverb is not "soluble" with the program.

Hardware reverbs maintain audio quality better than software based reverbs - this is even more apparent in better sounding rooms than our typical living rooms. For the hardware reverbs, the Lexicon PCM 96 integrates well with the program material, and the Bricasti M7 does it even better than the Lexicon, especially in the reverb tail where the M7 sounds less grainy and doesn't oscillate pitch. I've also heard samples where Bricasti IR work fine and samples where they don't work as well as the M7 hardware unit. I've spoken with Casey Dowdell, the founder of Bricasti (he's the "Cas" in Bricasti). He's local and offered to personally integrate the unit in my studio if I buy one. :wink:

The only software solution I've seen where the reverb is as good as a hardware interface is Flux::Ircam Verb
http://www.fluxhome.com/products/plug_ins/ircam_verb
The reverb sounds sophisticated, deep, integrates well into the recording, and sounds very smooth without a hint of grain. I tried the trial version and it's very flexible, but requires a working knowledge of various acoustic parameters.

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 Post subject: Re: VIDEOS - piano four-hands
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:52 pm 
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Quote:
I nominate Andreas to get the "Most Creative Animated Smilies Award." :P


Oh, thank you! :D

Quote:
Hi Andreas, as tempting as the Bricasti M7 IR samples are, I haven't been able to integrate them well into Space Designer found in Logic Pro. Altiverb might be a better software choice, but it's much more difficult to set up seamlessly in stereo IR. As with many software reverbs, the audio quality suffers as reverb is added. For 2 channel recording, convolution reverb is OK, but for complex multiple mic recording in an ensemble, IR's don't integrate and blend into the sound in an organic and transparent way. They draw too much attention to themselves as the mic count goes up and you can tell that the reverb is not "soluble" with the program.

Hardware reverbs maintain audio quality better than software based reverbs - this is even more apparent in better sounding rooms than our typical living rooms. For the hardware reverbs, the Lexicon PCM 96 integrates well with the program material, and the Bricasti M7 does it even better than the Lexicon, especially in the reverb tail where the M7 sounds less grainy and doesn't oscillate pitch. I've also heard samples where Bricasti IR work fine and samples where they don't work as well as the M7 hardware unit. I've spoken with Casey Dowdell, the founder of Bricasti (he's the "Cas" in Bricasti). He's local and offered to personally integrate the unit in my studio if I buy one. :wink:

The only software solution I've seen where the reverb is as good as a hardware interface is Flux::Ircam Verb
http://www.fluxhome.com/products/plug_ins/ircam_verb
The reverb sounds sophisticated, deep, integrates well into the recording, and sounds very smooth without a hint of grain. I tried the trial version and it's very flexible, but requires a working knowledge of various acoustic parameters.


Thank you very much for these explanations, George. :D I´m always very interested in these matters and I see you have much more knowledge concerning them as me. (I also have to admit that I have no money in that moment for trying out new things, wether software nor hardware, but I always appreciate highly to get information and opinions!) I have tried to integrate the free Bricasti-environments in WaveLab and I only had a half success, so to speak. I could integrate that module called SIR and so I´m able to select the Bricasti environments like Vienna Hall etc. and I also hear the effects done in WaveLab very well and the differences between the halls, rooms and different reverberation-settings. But if I render the actual settings into the audio-file the effect is extremely falsified. The sound is much drier than before the rendering process, so I suppose, that mainly the Bricasti- reverberation-setting doesn´t work in the rendering-process of WaveLab. That´s why I have given up to use Bricasti. It´s quite a pity, because I would like to have these sound-environments very much! There are really very beautiful ones among them, which I would love to use! :cry: I also have said this to Didier then, who is our great specialist here concerning recording equipment and who also uses Wave Lab 6 like me. He had not that problem I have and he couldn´t find the reason. May be the reason lies somewhere in my computer?! :cry:
I think, you are really lucky to know the founder and that he helps you to integrate the hardware unit.
Thank you also very much for the link above, which I surely will check out as soon as I will find a quiet hour. :D

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