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 Post subject: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:06 pm
Posts: 88
Location: CZ
Hello,
I hope you don´t mind to listen these recordings of Bach. There is much work on pieces and sound. There are some wrong notes.
I can record it again. I would appreciate your commentaries very much.
Thank You ! :)

Martin, 23, Czech republic


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:31 am 
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Location: Springfield, Missouri, USA
Hello Martin,
I think these are coming quite nicely. I would recommend that the prelude go a bit faster, thereby making the individual notes less important than the larger groups and phrases. The fugue has a good tempo but sounds a bit heavy. Can you give it some lightness to it and modulate the dynamics more (it can't all be "front and center")? Remember to drop the volume of a subject voice when it becomes couterpoint (or counter subject) to another voice declaring the subject. I would accent the first two notes of the subject more forcefully and bring down the rest of it. I appreciate you doing the trills properly "on" the beat instead of prior to the ornamented note, as demonstrated in his Explication. Keep polishing it and it will be a fine performance indeed!

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:00 am 
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It's clear and (mostly) precise, but to me sounds a bit mechanical. It could use a lot more variety of dynamics and tone quality. Can you describe in words how you see the character of each movement?

(It's not an easy fugue--you're doing well--but I'm very fussy!)

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Alexander Hanysz, http://hanysz.net


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Good solid playing, it sounds as if you are serious about Bach and are determined to do things properly.
The prelude indeed is a bit stilted at this tempo. That could be more lively. The fugue tempo is good. It could be quicker, but doesn't have to. You are doing well there.

Some things I heard (maybe you're aware of most of these)

prelude bar 9: RH A# should be A natural
prelude bar 14 : observe the rests
prelude bar 17: the last RH not is F# not e
prelude bar 20: you are not supposed to hit the B again - it's tied
prelude: the closing chord is strange - either make a nice arpeggio or a smooth even chord - not something in between

fugue bar 13: the first LH note is e not d#

General observations: indeed more variety and flexibility is needed. Try to think more in phrases. Do lift the fingers now and then (especially when rests are written, I find it helps playing a rest as if it were a note, moving the finger upwards explicitly). The fugue needs much better voicing (it would be difficult enough without having to do that too :roll: ). It's nice that you insert extra trills, but some of them sound a bit tentative. Take your time for a trill, not just squeeze it in.

I hope these remarks are useful to you. I think you're on the right track here and can build something good on it.

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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:02 am
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Location: Sankt Augustin, Germany
Martin

Thank you for sharing this. I really enjoyed listening to it.

Generally, I agree to what the others have remarked. It's not the odd wrong note that bothers me. The Prelude definitely needs more flow and fewer hesitations. It really seems you haven't quite reached the point when you should perform/record this. A bit more practice, more flow and more dynamics and it'll sound right.

The fugue comes across much more confidently, it has the right flow and sounds much better from a technical point of view. And yet it is all on one dynamic level and the subject seems 'covered' by the other parts, which should be more in the background.

As techneut said, you could also work on your phrasing.

You're definitely on a good way and I would really like to hear it again after you've polished it up a bit.

Cheers

Daniel


Last edited by Daniel Hoehr on Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Location: CZ
Hi,
It is true that I would like to play Bach nicely, I love this music very much, also Chopin´s.
I am grateful for your kind and helpful comments. I agree with you and I will try to improve these pieces accordingly.
One thing is that I was quite much excited by the act of recording and was caught up by the musical stream. I usually face this in public performances also - not so much overview on what´s happening. My approach to music is generally quite intuitive. I should definitely work more on voicing, phrasing, etc. I should get some good ( Urtext ? ) edition also.
:)
"Can you describe in words how you see the character of each movement?" Interesting question Hanysz. Now I would see the character of these 2 pieces pieces as 1. natural, simple, sparkling and 2. joyful. But it varies in my mind. But why are you asking, please?

musical-md, how many notes encopass the theme, 6? Thank you,


m.


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:05 pm 
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Biggemski wrote:
Hi,
musical-md, how many notes encopass the theme, 6? Thank you,
m.

This fugue is for 3 voices that enter in the following order: 2-1-3. The subject is 10-11 notes long and then becomes Counter Subject (because it's pattern appears again later in opposition to other statments of the subject as in m.4). The answer that appears in 2nd measure soprano is "Real" not "Tonal." The subject is characterized rhytmically by driving force to beats 3 and 1. The Exposition is 10 measures long. The Development is from bars 11-19. The Recap begins in measure 19 with pick-up to beat 3. (Though these terms more properly regard sonata form, their use is standard [even if anachronisitc] with regard to fugal analysis.) It takes great skill to voice properly especially when the subject is in the alto between hands or in a single hand that is also doing other.

Regarding editions, what I value the most is scholarship; what I value the least is interpretive editing, since Bach provided none. You cannot go wrong with the authoritative G. Henle Verlag or the very scholarly edition of Hans Bischoff (published by Kalmus). Another option is the Neue Bach Ausgabe. Avoid at all costs anything that is filled with dynamic markings, articulation marks, and tempos that are not clearly just suggestions.

Good luck! The journey is perhaps more pleasurable than arriving at the destination - at least for me. :)

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:26 pm 
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techneut wrote:
... Some things I heard (maybe you're aware of most of these)

prelude bar 9: RH A# should be A natural
prelude bar 14 : observe the rests
prelude bar 17: the last RH not is F# not e
prelude bar 20: you are not supposed to hit the B again - it's tied
prelude: the closing chord is strange - either make a nice arpeggio or a smooth even chord - not something in between

fugue bar 13: the first LH note is e not d#


Regarding Chris's "corrections" in prelude bar 9 and 20, these are actually dependent upon the edition you are playing from. The first is an A# in the Schwenke manuscript copy, but A natural in Simrock and Hoffmeister printed editions, so it is dependent on what ever your version is based upon. I believe too that it should be played A natural and is indicated as such in the two editions I recommended (G. Henle and Bischoff). Regarding the tie in bar 20, it is missing in the Gerber manuscript copy and the Hoffmeister printed edition, but included by virtue of scholarship in both editions already mentioned. The other "errors" are definitely mistakes that you should correct, though if I were you I would make all the recommended changes. To avoid problems in the future, you may wish to buy a different edition of Bach's music - or you may not as there are likely few that can appreciate the difference.

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:21 pm 
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I'm sure there are different things in different editions. The accepted norm here, sort of a consensus grown over the years, that the (Henle) Urtext is the right one. My 'corrections' stem from from playing the WTC for many years, but I always check against the Urtext before pointing out any error.

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Chris Breemer


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:57 pm 
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Biggemski wrote:
"Can you describe in words how you see the character of each movement?" Interesting question Hanysz. Now I would see the character of these 2 pieces pieces as 1. natural, simple, sparkling and 2. joyful. But it varies in my mind. But why are you asking, please?.


I am asking for two reasons:

1. The tempo of the prelude. If you want it to sparkle then it definitely needs to go faster. (When I heard the slow tempo, I thought maybe you had a different idea.)

2. The fugue: dynamics and shaping. To me it doesn't sound joyful at the moment, it sounds slightly aggressive. I think the tempo is OK for this one, but you need to think about the tone quality.

Often the sounds we make on the piano don't match what's in our imagination, that's why we need to keep asking others for feedback.

Keep up the good work, and I look forward to hearing your next recording of these pieces.

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Alexander Hanysz, http://hanysz.net


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:39 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:06 pm
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It is interesting that Gould´s version of prelude is not much faster and still it doesn´t lack. He had the genius, of course, but would it be explainable in musical terms also?

Dear Hanysz, perhaps the fugue should not be much "joyful" but rather "confident" - but it would definitely not be nice to have it sound aggressive, I will try to control myself.

Musical-md: I play lots of pieces of music, a lot of sight-reading, so I like the jorney more also, kind of way of life, to fix the consciousness on more higher things and ideals, you know what I mean. Final polishing is "killing" me sometimes, but I would like to come with pieces up to some standard :).

Probably I should consult some teacher personally, but I really appreciate your comments and this forum and I would like to post more music.


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:43 pm 
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Biggemski wrote:
Probably I should consult some teacher personally, but I really appreciate your comments and this forum and I would like to post more music.

On one hand, PS is no substitute for a teacher. Taking lessons from a good (nor necessarily famous) concert pianist, even if it's only a few lessons a year, is definitely recommended for everybody.
On the other hand, if someone really does his/her best, is determined to improve his/her playing with the help of PS members, and has no problem being criticized, that can work too. So keep posting !

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
Chris Breemer


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:08 pm 
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techneut wrote:
On the other hand, if someone really does his/her best, is determined to improve his/her playing with the help of PS members, and has no problem being criticized, that can work too. So keep posting !

I like this remark :) :)

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Hye-Jin Lee
"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:20 am 
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Location: Stockholm
Hello,

nicely done, I like especially your Fuge. I love Bach. I think you would be a good organist because you have a good rhytm. At the piano try to thing in one bow for each phrase and try to sing during playing. I think you should really record it on an organ! It would be really magnificent.

/B

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Bohumir - don't take it so hard, please... Usually I don't think about what I write.


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 Post subject: Re: J.S. Bach - Prelude and Fugue in E, WTC I
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:44 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:06 pm
Posts: 88
Location: CZ
Hello,
thank you for your comment and advice, Bohumir, I rarely sing along my practice, maybe I should.
I actually enrolled Pardubice conservatory to study organ and piano, I will start in September 2011, so then I can record, or maybe sooner but at the moment I don´t have any organ training.

M.


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