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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:08 pm 
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PIanolady wrote:
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@Andreas - Yes, I'd be interested in doing another collaborative recording with you.


That´s fine! :D So I will make thoughts about a piece until my autumn holidays start. Do you want something four hands or should we try to find another partner for six hands?

I understand your feelings you told us above. Somehow I feel a bit guilty now, because sometimes I also have not always the time to comment on other members pieces, but I think, I´m quite reliable to comment on new recordings of my old friends here (even if some of them don´t always comment reliably on my ones). (BTW, I´m missing somehow Pantelis, do you know something about him. His recordings were always of a high quality!)

I´m very glad to hear you will not leave for now! :!: :D Image

Just on tip: if you want, that your statements should be read by all members, you should post them in an extra thread. Here they could be overseen easily by many members (as sad as it is).

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:55 pm 
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I must admit having some of these sentiments too. Indeed sometimes it feels like we're every Tom Dick and Harry's unpaid secretaries. People don't fully realize all the silly donkey work that needs to be done here, and all the time it can take. I would almost want to suggest that people who want their recordings up on the site sign up as a helper admin, so they can do it themselves. But that is a bit radical. Many people would leave, and for those would would not, it would cost us a lot of time to give them accounts/permissions and explain all the procedures to them, especially the non-technically inclined.

It would be so good to have another full-blown admin though. I know there are (or have been) people around here with sufficient computer and music skills to do the job, but none has ever taken the bait, which peeves me a bit. I guess they all have a good reason.

musicusblau wrote:
I´m quite reliable to comment on new recordings of my old friends here (even if some of them don´t always comment reliably on my ones)

Does this pertain to my recent comments on your Bach, Andreas ?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:49 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Ok, well, I guess "Hear ye, hear ye!" As Chris clearly referred to, here is the REAL TRUTH. But this is all from my perspective and like what Andreas said - saying and getting everything out in the open may be a good idea in order to avoid having a stomach ache.

I started typing earlier this morning and before I knew it had written out three full pages of all my gripes about certain members and stuff like that. Now I am chickening out and taking out most of what I wrote. Basically all I want to say is that what Chris says here,
Techneut wrote:
If only it were that. For most pianists, with the exception of the regulars, PS is little more than a free podium and hosting service. They step in with a new bunch of recordings, the admins spend some of their free time to evaluate, tag and upload them, and update the site (sometimes considerable time, when new pages must be created and research must be done), the artist gets his/her applause, bows and thanks the audience, and leaves the premises, not to be seen back until there's something else they want published. A boring and predictable dance, that is one aspect of PS that I find increasingly dismaying. Despite Monica's frequent plea to give something back, hardly one of them ever does so.

is what bugs me a lot too. I really do not want to deal with any of these types of members anymore. I wish there was a way for us to put a stop to it - maybe something like that all members must actually put in some time listening AND critiquing other members' recordings if they want their own recordings to go up onto the site. And this includes our 'regulars' too. Why can't we do this? It's not like we are hurting for recordings. We already have TONS of great recordings!

And now on an even more personal and yes, a very selfish level, I'll add this: Bittersweet. George nailed it on the head with this word. That's exactly how I feel about completing my mazurka project. Yes, I am so glad that I did learn and record all of them. To me, it was a nice journey - I learned a lot of new pieces which I had not played before and while I was taking lessons, my teacher was helping me to improve my technique. Prior to my taking lessons, I received feedback on the forum which helped me a lot too. But for the past several months, no one has offered to critique my mazurkas even though I have in the past put in considerable time critiquing other members' mazurkas. So this of course saddens me.

And it's not just my mazurkas, it's a lot of my recordings. There are those many members who visit the forum only when they have new recordings to submit, and then there are regular members who take time to listen/comment but only on new or relatively newer people. Sure, these regular members send me private messages/emails asking me to help them contact a member, or do something for their book, or change their bio page, or ask my opinion about their hour-long video, or ask me to put up their jokes, or replace their Schubert or Chopin recording for about the 20th time, and on and on, and I do all they ask for without complaining. Well, now I guess I am complaining. Don't you think it might be nice to help me once in a while? I am very insecure about my playing! Heck, I hang around here with a bunch of really great players, so can you blame me? I just feel like everybody's secretary. Like, who cares if I practice and practice, trying to grow as a musician like everybody else. As long as I do all the grunt work.

So, that's about it. I don't want to leave PS and really! really!! want to keep our little 'family' together. But if member participation does not become even just a little bit more balanced, then I don't know what else to do. PS has become a sad place for me. Do you think we can bring it back to the fun/entertaining/helpful place it once was?

*********************

@Andreas - Yes, I'd be interested in doing another collaborative recording with you.

hi, Monica!

I hope the video of my berner is not in the list of the "hour-long video" people want you to watch! hehe

I do understand you both (Chris also). I also understand that this is such a thing that would happen anyway. It's normal to "get used" with the admins of the site and get them overworking for you. So we should think of something to do to avoid it. I thought of something to do...

1) the first thing is to publish messages like this one (Monica did) from time to time. I think it makes people think of it and help you more. so people will read it and change the behavior a little. but it will not last too long. Then you publish another message, "reminding" them. hehe

2) you could have more admins.
I remember someday Chris said he was considering making me an admin, because I was uploading too much and then I could do it myself and his work would be much less. hehe
I think he was kidding.
Even so, at that time I had lots of free time to spend in PS, which is not the case right now.
however some assiduous members could receive this invitation. maybe one should not expect this member will check the Audition Room every day, or even every week (otherwise there will be NO ONE who will accept the invitation). but sure it must be someone you trust (and I mean MUSICALLY. hehe)

3) you should definitely deny any "new composition"! hehe
there are lots of "new composers" posting here in the audition room. most of the time these are crap (or people get mixed up. They write a new age piece and think it's classical). and new compositions take a lot of time to consider the quality of it... and even so it's a task much more difficult and risky than evaluating a performance.


and now I want to make my complain.
I haven't been online on PS for a while. too busy with other stuffs. lots of things changing in my life lately. so I don't know how PS is working nowadays.
but I do remember there were some "lobbies" here, which is disappointing. there are some members who always receive great compliments about their recordings, no matter how "normal" they are, and there are others who always receive critics no matter how good their recordings are. it's something established BEFORE they listen to the recording. if they like the pianist, they'll never listen to any defect; and if they don't, they'll never listen to any quality.

there are also those who "follow" some members. I mean... there are some members who only comment on recordings by an X person.

all of these are understandable, since it mirrors the "real life" (here it's the virtual one). but I do have to say it's kinda of unstimulating.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:11 am 
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Thank you so much, Monica, for taking the time to share your thoughts. I have noticed some of what you mentioned, and some of it I haven't. It seems like the admin job is one that takes a lot of work, yet everyone takes the admins for granted. It must be difficult.

I must admit, I'm not the best commenter - where I usually access PS it's noisy and I'm unable to hear. But I'll try to be better about contributing my little two cents to the discussions here. And I'm somewhat challenged in all things computer-related, but I might be willing to help out here some too...

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:25 am 
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Location: Carbondale, IL
Hi Monica,
Some comments on your Muzurkas:
63.1 - great playing, if I could give you any criticism it would be to slow down each phrase, as the way you play it sounds slightly rushed.

63.3 - the rubato is excellent, one remark I have is at 1:18 there seems to be a slight moment of hesitation hitting the a flat. At 1:46 change in pace was great

B-flat major - at :29 it sounds a little too loud, but it could just be my ear, technically sounds great

A-flat major - at :13 and :30 the trills sound cheated. Another word I would use is unbalanced. I realize it is hard to play them uptempo, just something I noticed.

These are some beautiful pieces and you played them great.

I would reconsider leaving and apologize if I have not commented on your pieces or others as much as my time allows.

-Riley

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:02 am 
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@Andreas - It does not matter to me if we do four-hand or six-hand. Do you think we can find another player if we want to do six-hand? Everybody seems so busy these days...

@Felipe - no, I did not mean your videos. Yours are short and your new puppy is so cute. And can I just reply here (instead of going back to hotmail) that I hope your Masters Degree problems get resolved soon. You are very knowledgeable regarding piano music and also a fine player so I wish you well (plus, you make me laugh...) But really, you and Andreas, and even Chris has told me to put my 'complaints' in a new thread so as to attract attention from all other members. Ok, I think I will do this. Tuesday I will have some time. Maybe we can make it a sort of 'soap box' where we can ALL voice our complaints and suggestions to make PS even better than it is.

@Sarah - that's okay, you are sweet, so thank you.

@Riley - Thank you very much for the feedback. It's hearing these kinds of things that I love - makes me go back and look at the piece to see if I agree or not, and whether I need to re-record the piece in question. Funny, about the rubato. Some people like more, some like less. I am one who likes less in the mazurkas. But that's just me (maybe because I can't do it very well.... :lol: ).

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:53 am 
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Some good points there, Felipe.

felipesarro wrote:
1) the first thing is to publish messages like this one (Monica did) from time to time. I think it makes people think of it and help you more. so people will read it and change the behavior a little. but it will not last too long. Then you publish another message, "reminding" them. hehe

This doesn't seem to help much. It's far easier to get people to donate their money than their time.

felipesarro wrote:
2) you could have more admins.
I remember someday Chris said he was considering making me an admin, because I was uploading too much and then I could do it myself and his work would be much less. hehe I think he was kidding.

Only half. You certainly were causing us a lot of work at that time, especially with all these new composers. It would be so great if (approved) members could manage their own recordings and pages. But this is not so easily achieved unless we move to a wiki-like concept where everybody can contribute directly to the site.

felipesarro wrote:
Even so, at that time I had lots of free time to spend in PS, which is not the case right now.
however some assiduous members could receive this invitation. maybe one should not expect this member will check the Audition Room every day, or even every week (otherwise there will be NO ONE who will accept the invitation). but sure it must be someone you trust (and I mean MUSICALLY. hehe)

That is the problem. That someone who has musical authority, some IT skills, and is willing to donate time on a daily basis, is a rare bird indeed.

felipesarro wrote:
3) you should definitely deny any "new composition"! hehe
there are lots of "new composers" posting here in the audition room. most of the time these are crap (or people get mixed up. They write a new age piece and think it's classical). and new compositions take a lot of time to consider the quality of it... and even so it's a task much more difficult and risky than evaluating a performance.

Yeah I could do without all the crap stuff being sent in. More often than not, they don't even thank me for telling them it's crap :D
Having said that, there's also very good stuff now and then.

felipesarro wrote:
and now I want to make my complain.
I haven't been online on PS for a while. too busy with other stuffs. lots of things changing in my life lately. so I don't know how PS is working nowadays.
but I do remember there were some "lobbies" here, which is disappointing. there are some members who always receive great compliments about their recordings, no matter how "normal" they are, and there are others who always receive critics no matter how good their recordings are. it's something established BEFORE they listen to the recording. if they like the pianist, they'll never listen to any defect; and if they don't, they'll never listen to any quality.
there are also those who "follow" some members. I mean... there are some members who only comment on recordings by an X person.
all of these are understandable, since it mirrors the "real life" (here it's the virtual one). but I do have to say it's kinda of unstimulating.

Yes it would be easy to spot 'lobbies' here. I think however they are usually built upon common repertoire interest, and the wish to dig deeper into certain issues, rather than on some personal relationship. But yes, the inclination to give detailed feedback on recordings does depend on how well you get on with that person. It's only human. As well as the person's reaction on the feedback - there are maybe only a handful of pianists who actually use constructive feedback to improve their playing. I think I'm one of those. But I don't always get feedback on everything either. Anyway, I guess everybody has their own personal ideas about this topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:14 pm 
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Techneut wrote:
Quote:
Does this pertain to my recent comments on your Bach, Andreas ?


No, Chris, of course not! I don´t know, how you come on that idea. You have commented on my new Bach as reliably as I do always on your Bach-recordings, I think. May be it was a missunderstanding of the word "reliable", I meant it in the sense of "always" not in the sense of "precise". And btw, your ability of listening sometimes seems to be still preciser than my one as you have proofed on my mordents of the prelude.
I only wanted to say, that there are some "old fellows" here on PS, I usually comment on, but they don´t always comment on my recordings. But for me that really is no problem, because I know, how it is to have no time from time to time!

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Last edited by musicusblau on Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Pianolady wrote:
Quote:
Andreas - It does not matter to me if we do four-hand or six-hand. Do you think we can find another player if we want to do six-hand? Everybody seems so busy these days...


I would like to try a four hands piece this time, because this is one factor less of editing and trying to get the tracks right together. I will think about a suitable piece. Of course, you also can make a suggestion, if you like.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:06 am 
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musicusblau wrote:
Pianolady wrote:
Quote:
Andreas - It does not matter to me if we do four-hand or six-hand. Do you think we can find another player if we want to do six-hand? Everybody seems so busy these days...


I would like to try a four hands piece this time, because this is one factor less of editing and trying to get the tracks right together. I will think about a suitable piece. Of course, you also can make a suggestion, if you like.


Do you want to do just audio/mp3 recording, or do you think we could try video? Also, I don't know that many four-hand pieces, but I do have a list of duets on my computer (somewhere). If you can't think of a piece, then we can look on that list. Also - I just remembered - I do have two Granados four-hand pieces that I was wanting to try out but haven't had the time to as of yet. I can check them out too if you like.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Pianolady wrote:
Quote:
I do have two Granados four-hand pieces that I was wanting to try out but haven't had the time to as of yet. I can check them out too if you like.


I´m open for that. I also was thinking of a movement of a symphony by Joseph Haydn, arranged for piano four hands. The problem of romantic music for such projects is, that there should be some rubati in them, which is difficult to get together, when we add the two tracks. A classical (or baroque) piece doesn´t need so much rubati. But I don´t know anything four hands baroque piece at this moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:03 pm 
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Yes, Andreas, you are right about romantic music being hard to synchronize. I'll go look for that list of four-hand pieces I have and see if there are any baroque ones. Also, you, Felipe, and any other member reading this: Go look at the top thread in the Audition Room. I just put up a sticky asking for ideas and suggestions regarding the 'lack of member participation' issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:18 am 
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Hi Monica,

Overall, I think you've done nice work here. This is deceptively difficult music to play well, both technically and musically, and you're well on your way to achieving control with them. Generally, I just think you need to breathe a bit more of the life of the Mazurka into these pieces. If you haven't already, it may help to listen to some of the great Mazurka players (especially Ignaz Friedman, with Sofronitsky and Horowitz also coming to mind) just to get an idea. The mazurka IMO is intended to be a rather light, elegant, yet rustic and rhythmically solid dance, and you might experiment more, for example, with its characteristic rhythm (i.e., hesitation on second beat, often accented third beat, etc.)

Overall, on a technical level, things you could work on are the interplay between bass and accompanimental figures (I sometimes found your chordal accompaniments too loud and thumped in relation to the more melodic bass note progressions), rhythmic precision (specifically dotted rhythms, which of course can be very difficult to execute but are seemingly ubiquitous in these pieces), and dynamic contrasts (you do some nice things in this category, but the overall impression I got is that the sound is rather too thick and loud).

Here are some specifics I noted in the first two:

Op. 63, No. 1: This one I have always found to be very tricky with its plethora of ornamentation. Nice direct opening, though note the crescendos in the upward passages (at least in my edition). Your ornaments are quite evenly dispatched, which is good, though in focusing on those, you seem to bog down the tempo a bit. Nice middle section in general, though the tempo does accelerate a bit beyond what seems natural to me. I like your dynamic crescendos and taperings here. Be careful about coming down like a ton of bricks on those forte octaves in the ensuing passage, though. Of course you do want it to be firm but not to give the impression of stomping. Nice lead-in back to theme A, but perhaps it should be even quieter and more contrasted? The last page could perhaps sound nobler and less strained. Nice ending though! I like your contrasts here.

Op. 63, No. 3: IMO this may well be one of the greatest of the mazurkas. I just love that polyphonic dialogic reworking of the main theme. Here I think you could work more on phrasing, perhaps deciding what you want to with each phrase and then practicing it in at a slow tempo? Also, some of the dotted rhythms seem slightly cheated to me (a metronome might help there) I think you have the right general idea, though, and your bass is generally sonorous and well demarcated here. The middle section I think should be more pointed, rhythmic, and quiet (it is marked sotto voce after all -- at least in my edition). Some nice voicing and contrast in the culminating polyphonic passage though.


Well anyway, just some suggestions. It's truly a fine accomplishment to record such a large, wide-ranging set! Something to be very proud of.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:12 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
Hi Monica,
Overall, I think you've done nice work here. This is deceptively difficult music to play well, both technically and musically, and you're well on your way to achieving control with them. Generally, I just think you need to breathe a bit more of the life of the Mazurka into these pieces. If you haven't already, it may help to listen to some of the great Mazurka players (especially Ignaz Friedman, with Sofronitsky and Horowitz also coming to mind) just to get an idea. The mazurka IMO is intended to be a rather light, elegant, yet rustic and rhythmically solid dance, and you might experiment more, for example, with its characteristic rhythm (i.e., hesitation on second beat, often accented third beat, etc.)

Hi again, Joe. I totally agree here. It's very strange - you'd think that while learning all these mazurkas and also listening to others play them, I'd be more tuned in to that characteristic rhythm. But it is only NOW that I feel like I understand it better. Not that I can always play correctly, but just...I dunno...I 'get' it. Maybe because it is finally sinking in. But when I am recording, I'm so concerned about getting the notes right, that I forget to get the 'style' right too. Btw - I'm not crazy about Friedman's mazurkas, but I was recently introduced to Jan Smeterlin's mazurkas. I really like his playing! That's how I want to be able to play them.


jrl43 wrote:
Overall, on a technical level, things you could work on are the interplay between bass and accompanimental figures (I sometimes found your chordal accompaniments too loud and thumped in relation to the more melodic bass note progressions), rhythmic precision (specifically dotted rhythms, which of course can be very difficult to execute but are seemingly ubiquitous in these pieces), and dynamic contrasts (you do some nice things in this category, but the overall impression I got is that the sound is rather too thick and loud).

About my chords being too loud and thumped - hmmm, I don't think I've heard that sort of comment before. Interesting.... And thanks for all the other suggestions. I'm beginning to think that I may have to start all over again...like I'm NEVER going to be finished learning these mazurkas!

jrl43 wrote:
Well anyway, just some suggestions. It's truly a fine accomplishment to record such a large, wide-ranging set! Something to be very proud of.

Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin Mazurkas (COMPLETE) Yay!!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:37 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
About my chords being too loud and thumped - hmmm, I don't think I've heard that sort of comment before. Interesting.... And thanks for all the other suggestions. I'm beginning to think that I may have to start all over again...like I'm NEVER going to be finished learning these mazurkas!

Oh, you thought you were finished with them. Hehe. Are we ever finished with anything....
I'm certainly starting all over again with these.

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