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 Post subject: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:18 am 
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Well, here goes. This is my first attempt at recording myself. The recording is done with my recently purchased Zoom H2 recorder on my 5'8" Baldwin grand. This is basically a live performance since I don't know how to edit the recordings.

I see that there are many recordings of the Bach Italian Concerto at the society, but this is what I had ready at the time of joining the forum. I will be relearning some less commonly recorded works this summer that are in my repertoire.

Bach Italian Concerto

First Movement
Andante
Presto

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:03 am 
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Hi Helene, nice to hear you playing for the first time :D
I listened to all three movements and I liked your second movement a lot! It's really beautifully played. But I have some reservations about the fast outer movements. They still could be improved. Some ueven runs, not so smooth trills, heavy and laborius touches... although they appear just on some spots, they still hinder the musical flow.
About the recording quality you had better use the "auto gain" function, which helps you to get the ideal level (it's on the H4 and I'm sure H2 has that, too). The recording level is too low. And you could make experiments with location of the recorder. I suppose from my experience with H4 that H2 could achieve much more than this.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:29 am 
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Hi Hye-Jin - Thanks for the critique. There is an auto gain function on the H2 recorder. I'll have to experiment with it.

I got very used to playing with my eyes glued to the music over the past 30 years. This won't work with the Italian Concerto fast movements. I found myself tensing up when playing by memory which probably caused the uneveness.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Hi Helene,
I have played and recorded the Italian Concerto for PS, too, and there is a most beautiful and elaborated version by Alfonso on this site, btw. Your version in summary is not the worst, but I have the following ideas of improvements:
1) to the 1st movement: the tempo could be more even, sometimes you run away or slow down, this kind of rubato shouldn´t be done too much in Bachs music and there are rhythmical imprecisions. A technical probelem is, that your touch seems to be too ponderous, which could be the reason also for the rhythmical and tempo-related uneveness. At some places there is too much pedal.
2) to the 2nd movement: the thirds are not ideally together at the beginning, otherwise it´s played nicely.
3) to the 3rd movement: in the runs there is rhythmical and tempo-related unpreciseness here and there and too much pedal (One should not use pedal in Bachs music while playing runs of seconds!). The touch is too ponderous, too. (May be you press too much while playing.) So, here are the same problems like in the first movement. The tempo in summary is too slow here.

You should increase your recording level, I had to put my volume on 60 :shock: , normally I listen with 30 to my and other recordings of PS! There are several audio editing programs, for free download f.ex. there is "Audacity" or I personally use "Wave Lab", which is not free. With such programs you can increase your recording level by normalization function f.ex. and cut out your slips from another take and much more useful things.
I hope you take my advices not as a personal critique, but just as what they are meant to be (see above, please).

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:45 am 
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Thanks Andreas. I haven't played for a teacher for over 30 years, so thanks for the reminder that I was playing too harshly. I wasn't entirely happy with the 1st and 3rd movements myself (you don't actually hear yourself until you listen to a recording), but I was anxious to submit something to the forum so I would be more than just a lurker and then move on to something else. I also had not been practicing too much until recently. I am finding the piano society a motivator. I discovered 3 major sonatas which had been standards in my repertoire for which no complete recording exists in the piano society archives. I just started looking at one of them, a Beethoven sonata, tonight. I think that everyone will enjoy this more than the Bach.

Thanks for the information on the editing programs. This is something that I need to learn if I am to be serious about making good recordings. This would have definitely been beneficial to a few spots in the Bach. I definitely need to do some experimentation with volume, distance from the mike, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:18 pm 
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Hello Helene,
I am Monica - we've not spoken before but I wanted to introduce myself to you. I just listened to your 2nd movement (because that's the only one I've played) and think you played it very nicely. Your trills are good! You already know the problems regarding the sound quality and all that - you will find a lot of helpful recording information on our forum. And in your next time around, you may want to keep your dog in another room. At least that's what I think I heard in the background.

hzemel wrote:
I just started looking at one of them, a Beethoven sonata, tonight. I think that everyone will enjoy this more than the Bach.


Yeah - nobody here likes Bach that much! ( :lol: - just joking) (really just my dumb joke...)

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:11 pm 
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We will lynch you anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:56 pm 
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uh oh! Then I better start running....

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:56 pm 
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Hi Monica - Nice to meet you too. I listened to a few of your Spanish pieces. Very well done. I love that music. It always puts me in a good mood. I've done a few of the Albeniz Iberia and a few of the Spanish Dances of Granados. I had a chance to see and hear, many years ago, Alicia de la Rocha at Carnegie Hall and also more recently at a master class that I attended a few summers ago.

I have a lot to learn about making recordings, but I see that there are a lot of helpful people on this forum. I just downloaded the Audacity editing program. I just have to learn how to use it. :) I have a piano student who may be able to help me with this. He does sound mixing for popular artists and even did something for one of Beyonce's albums.

You have good hearing. I do have a dog. Most of the time she is quiet when she is around me. She would create more of a ruckus if I put her away. I don't remember her barking during the 2nd movement, but then, again, I was busy playing.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:45 am 
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hzemel wrote:
You have good hearing. I do have a dog. Most of the time she is quiet when she is around me. She would create more of a ruckus if I put her away. I don't remember her barking during the 2nd movement, but then, again, I was busy playing.


It was not your dog's barking I heard; only the sound of it walking around and panting. I do have good hearing and background noises easily distract and annoy me - sorry, no offense to your dog. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:27 am 
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Wow! That's pretty acute hearing, Monica. I listened again to the 2nd movement and I don't hear it and I have a good set of earphones for the computer.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:40 pm 
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hzemel wrote:
Wow! That's pretty acute hearing, Monica. I listened again to the 2nd movement and I don't hear it and I have a good set of earphones for the computer.


Well, you made me think that perhaps I had imagined everything, so I just listened again. But nope, still heard your dog. The first time is right at the beginning - at 0:04. Then it's more pronounced at between 0:28 - 0:36, also between 0:43 - 0:52. Then we're good for awhile until near the end. Here comes doggie again at 5:05 - 5:22.

At least you know now that your recorder is pretty sensitive. And now that I just listened to this second movement again - I want to play it again myself. I really love it! When I come home from kickboxing class I'm going straight to my piano! (although that might make for an interesting Bach Italian Concerto interpretation. I'll record it in case I inadvertently throw in some karate chops and kicks...:lol: ) (Terez would love that! :P :lol: )

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:01 pm 
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I do like interesting interpretations...within certain boundaries of good taste. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:23 pm 
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Quote:
Well, you made me think that perhaps I had imagined everything, so I just listened again. But nope, still heard your dog. The first time is right at the beginning - at 0:04. Then it's more pronounced at between 0:28 - 0:36, also between 0:43 - 0:52. Then we're good for awhile until near the end. Here comes doggie again at 5:05 - 5:22.


I'll listen again to those spots. The spots at 0:04 and 5:22 may have just been me walking from turning on the recorder and then walking back to turn off the recorder. Not sure about the 0:28 spot. It could have been the dog settling down next to the piano. She enjoys listening to good music. I can tell that she is actively listening. I put her away when I teach. She'll be quiet when a student is playing a nice Chopin piece or something like the Moonlight Sonata 1st movement. She'll start barking as soon as the student stops.

I may re-record the 2nd movement as the volume is too low, but not today because it is close to 100 degrees :( in New York and I don't want to turn off the air conditioners. I'll have to learn how to edit out that space between starting and ending the piece and turning on and off the recorder.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Hzemel wrote:
Quote:
I'll have to learn how to edit out that space between starting and ending the piece and turning on and off the recorder.


That´s the easiest exercise you can do with "Audacity", you just have to be audacious enough to mark the passage you want to cut off, then just delete it with the delelte-button on your computer. :wink: (Not so easy is f.ex. replacing a passage with a mistake by a right passage from another take, but also this can be learned, it just needs a bit experience to get it well.)

After having read all the really funny jokes about the non-Bach-liking forum-members and dogs in the background of recordings, I seem to be the typical PS-member: I´m an only-Beethoven-lover (that must have been the reason, why I have recorded the complete WTC I) and I hate dogs in the background of recordings (that´s why I have two cats)! :lol:

So, the conclusion seems to be, that we all would like to listen to a Beethoven-Sonata by you, if you promise to replace your dog by a decent cat! :lol: :wink:(Now seriously, nothing against your dog, if it can´t be heard in your recordings, and a Beethoven-Sonata is very welcome, of course. :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:17 pm 
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musicusblau wrote:
After having read all the really funny jokes about the non-Bach-liking forum-members and dogs in the background of recordings, I seem to be the typical PS-member: I´m an only-Beethoven-lover (that must have been the reason, why I have recorded the complete WTC I) and I hate dogs in the background of recordings (that´s why I have two cats)! :lol:
)


:lol: Funny, Andreas! And now that you said that, we will be seeing a 'complete Beethoven sonata' list from you too, right? :P

One more thing - whatever you do, don't get a bird! I think we have a couple recordings with birds in the background. Of course, nothing you can do about the ones outside, or the chipmunks either, for that matter. Those little critters are cute but they're even louder than birds. I'm always at war with them because they sit right outside my window where I record and chirp/squeak very loudly. Obviously they are purposely trying to wreck my recordings! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:22 am 
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Quote:
That´s the easiest exercise you can do with "Audacity", you just have to be audacious enough to mark the passage you want to cut off, then just delete it with the delelte-button on your computer. :wink: (Not so easy is f.ex. replacing a passage with a mistake by a right passage from another take, but also this can be learned, it just needs a bit experience to get it well.)


Taking out the before and after should be an easy exercise to start learning editing. I have an adult piano student who may be able to help me with the splicing. Not being able to do this was frustrating with the Bach 1st and 3rd movements.

As to the Beethoven, I just started reviewing the Les Adieux Sonata. I noticed that only the 2nd movement was recorded by the society. This should keep me pretty busy for a while. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:57 am 
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hzemel wrote:
As to the Beethoven, I just started reviewing the Les Adieux Sonata. I noticed that only the 2nd movement was recorded by the society. This should keep me pretty busy for a while. :)

Oh, I nearly started to learn that sonata, too! But since I have never played it before and the pieces on the top of my list (Lyadov, Mozart and Scriabin) have the priority, I believe that you will be the first one who recorded the whole sonata for PS, unless someone beats you with a live recording of all the three movements (I belong to those who prefers a complete recording set :wink:, too).
BTW I recently bought me the second volume of Beethoven sonatas of Henle (hard cover) just for 25 Euro! It's a bargain, isn't it? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:24 pm 
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Pianolady wrote:
Quote:
:lol: Funny, Andreas! And now that you said that, we will be seeing a 'complete Beethoven sonata' list from you too, right? :P


If I may continue with it in my next life, I don´t mind. :wink:

Pianolady wrote:
Quote:
One more thing - whatever you do, don't get a bird!


Right, I really don´t want to have a bird. (German: einen Vogel haben, english: to have a bird is colloquial and means to have bats in the belfry.) :lol: I know some musicians, who had a bird (I mean a real one), they both were teachers, one had a Beo and the other a parrot. I probably wouldn´t feel too happy with that, because I´m also a non-bird-noise-recording-lover (and I´m also an audacious-new-compounds-lover; I hope, I don´t hurt all rules of English grammar here)!

Pianolady wrote:
Quote:
I think we have a couple recordings with birds in the background. Of course, nothing you can do about the ones outside, or the chipmunks either, for that matter. Those little critters are cute but they're even louder than birds. I'm always at war with them because they sit right outside my window where I record and chirp/squeak very loudly. Obviously they are purposely trying to wreck my recordings!


So, you should only record Messiaen in future for to have the ideal background for his music, at least because of the birds (I don´t think, he has also eternalised chipmunks in his compositions). :lol:

Hyenal wrote:
Quote:
BTW I recently bought me the second volume of Beethoven sonatas of Henle (hard cover) just for 25 Euro! It's a bargain, isn't it? :D


My Henle book of Beethovens sonatas, book II, is over 30 years old, it cost 22 DM then. That´s a bargain from view of today! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:00 pm 
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musicusblau wrote:

If I may continue with it in my next life, I don´t mind. :wink:


Ok. :)

musicusblau wrote:
Right, I really don´t want to have a bird. (German: einen Vogel haben, english: to have a bird is colloquial and means to have bats in the belfry.) :lol:

I think I do have a couple bats in my belfry! (but they only come out night. ) :arrow: (sorry, that's a really dumb joke - I'm just very bored today!)

musicusblau wrote:
I probably wouldn´t feel too happy with that, because I´m also a non-bird-noise-recording-lover (and I´m also an audacious-new-compounds-lover; I hope, I don´t hurt all rules of English grammar here)!

Your English is better than my German, so you're good. Not quite sure what you mean by a 'new compounds' though.

musicusblau wrote:
So, you should only record Messiaen in future for to have the ideal background for his music, at least because of the birds (I don´t think, he has also eternalised chipmunks in his compositions).

I've never played nor heard any Messiaen! Did he write nice piano music?


musicusblau wrote:
Hyenal wrote:
Quote:
BTW I recently bought me the second volume of Beethoven sonatas of Henle (hard cover) just for 25 Euro! It's a bargain, isn't it? :D


My Henle book of Beethovens sonatas, book II, is over 30 years old, it cost 22 DM then. That´s a bargain from view of today! :wink:


I bought Dover edition both volumes of the Beethoven sonatas about three or four years ago and paid $16.95 for each book. Not sure how that converts to Euros.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:44 am 
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Monica wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
Hyenal wrote:
Quote:
BTW I recently bought me the second volume of Beethoven sonatas of Henle (hard cover) just for 25 Euro! It's a bargain, isn't it? :D


My Henle book of Beethovens sonatas, book II, is over 30 years old, it cost 22 DM then. That´s a bargain from view of today! :wink:


I bought Dover edition both volumes of the Beethoven sonatas about three or four years ago and paid $16.95 for each book. Not sure how that converts to Euros.

Oh, $16.95 is less than 15 Euro, so you made a very good purchase. But the original price of the Henle hard cover is 50 Euro (the paperback costs 33 Euro; Henle's price is always very high). The exemplar that I bought went through a return, so they reduced the price, even though it's completely new.
Andreas, isnt' 22 DM 11 Euro? Wahnsinn... It became more than four times expensive!


Mon wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
So, you should only record Messiaen in future for to have the ideal background for his music, at least because of the birds (I don´t think, he has also eternalised chipmunks in his compositions).

I've never played nor heard any Messiaen! Did he write nice piano music?

There is "Catalogue of Birds" among his piano compositions. I don't know his piano music well, but the 20 Views over the Child Jesus (not sure I'm translating it properly) is very beautiful..... I love the set.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:12 pm 
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hyenal wrote:
Monica wrote:
musicusblau wrote:
Hyenal wrote:
Quote:
BTW I recently bought me the second volume of Beethoven sonatas of Henle (hard cover) just for 25 Euro! It's a bargain, isn't it? :D


My Henle book of Beethovens sonatas, book II, is over 30 years old, it cost 22 DM then. That´s a bargain from view of today! :wink:


I bought Dover edition both volumes of the Beethoven sonatas about three or four years ago and paid $16.95 for each book. Not sure how that converts to Euros.


Oh, $16.95 is less than 15 Euro, so you made a very good purchase. But the original price of the Henle hard cover is 50 Euro (the paperback costs 33 Euro; Henle's price is always very high). The exemplar that I bought went through a return, so they reduced the price, even though it's completely new.
Andreas, isnt' 22 DM 11 Euro? Wahnsinn... It became more than four times expensive!


Does your Henle hard-cover book lay open flat? Binding on books is something that I look at if I'm buying a book in an actual store (versus online); they need to be strong, yet flexible too. Those Beethoven Sonata books I purchased have regular binding, but I took one of them to a place where they cut off the binding and replaced it with a spiral spine so that the book lays totally flat and the pages turn more easily. I think it cost me around ten more dollars so that then adds to the total cost of the book. From now on, if I see two books that are fairly equal and one of them has a spiral spine, then I buy that one. However, I'm thinking about what is in my cabinets and shelves and I don't think I have any hard-cover books, so that's why I don't know if they lay open nicely.


Hye Jin wrote:
There is "Catalogue of Birds" among his piano compositions. I don't know his piano music well, but the 20 Views over the Child Jesus (not sure I'm translating it properly) is very beautiful..... I love the set.

Hmm....now I'm curious. Maybe I'll see if I can find the music somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Pianolady wrote:
Quote:
I've never played nor heard any Messiaen! Did he write nice piano music?


Yes, for example there are his Petites Esquisses d’oiseaux for piano (1986) and his Catalogue d’oiseaux for piano (1956–58), which Hye Jin still has mentioned.

Here is the complete list of his piano works from wikipedia:
Klavier (Solo/zwei Klaviere) [Bearbeiten]
La Dame de Shalott für Klavier (1917), unveröffentlicht
La Tristesse d‘un grand ciel blanc für Klavier (1925), unveröffentlicht
Huit Préludes für Klavier (1928–29), Durand
Piece pour le tombeau de Paul Dukas für Klavier (1935), 5’, La Revue Musicale 166 (1936)
Rondeau für Klavier (1943), 3’, Leduc
Visions de l‘Amen für 2 Klaviere (1943), 48’, Durand.
Vingt regards sur l’enfant-Jésus für Klavier (1944), 125’, Durand
Cantéyodjayâ für Klavier (1949), 12’, Universal Edition
Quatre Etudes de Rythme für Klavier (1949–1950), Durand
Catalogue d’oiseaux für Klavier (1956–58), 165’, Leduc
La Fauvette des jardins für Klavier (1970), 34 1/2’, Leduc
Petites Esquisses d’oiseaux für Klavier (1986), 45’, Leduc

I think, Messiaen, who died only in 1992, is more known for his organ works, but could be interesting to study his piano works, too.

Pianolady wrote:
Quote:
Your English is better than my German, so you're good. Not quite sure what you mean by a 'new compounds' though.


Right, that must be a logical conclusion! :lol: "Compound" (german: Kompositum) is an expression of grammar and means a word, which consists of two or more words.

Hyenal wrote:
Quote:
Andreas, isnt' 22 DM 11 Euro? Wahnsinn... It became more than four times expensive!


Yes, 22 DM are 11 Euro. Here you have one of many examples, how much cheaper life in Germany was before the Euro came. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:13 pm 
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well, I just checked out some Messiaen music and now I don't think I will try playing it. Looks too hard and also too 'weird' for my taste. Unless someone says to me, "Monica, you have to look at (insert name of piece here) because it's very beautiful or cool-sounding and not too difficult. Then I'll look again at Messiaen.

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:14 pm
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Location: Germany
Monica wrote:
Does your Henle hard-cover book lay open flat? Binding on books is something that I look at if I'm buying a book in an actual store (versus online); they need to be strong, yet flexible too. Those Beethoven Sonata books I purchased have regular binding, but I took one of them to a place where they cut off the binding and replaced it with a spiral spine so that the book lays totally flat and the pages turn more easily. I think it cost me around ten more dollars so that then adds to the total cost of the book. From now on, if I see two books that are fairly equal and one of them has a spiral spine, then I buy that one. However, I'm thinking about what is in my cabinets and shelves and I don't think I have any hard-cover books, so that's why I don't know if they lay open nicely.

Yes, this hard-cover book lay open alone, even though probably not so flat as a spiral binding book. This is actually my first purchase of a hard-cover score. I made it because this book is 330 pages. I always find a book binding in Germany very reliable (it isn't so in some French books I've seen), but this edition is so thick that I'm afraid the binding gets apart after many years' use, if I buy a soft-cover.
Quote:
well, I just checked out some Messiaen music and now I don't think I will try playing it. Looks too hard and also too 'weird' for my taste. Unless someone says to me, "Monica, you have to look at (insert name of piece here) because it's very beautiful or cool-sounding and not too difficult. Then I'll look again at Messiaen.

Monica, also I never thought that I want to play Messiaen. There are still many pieces for our instrument, which look not so hard, but sound good :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:10 am 
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hyenal wrote:
Monica, also I never thought that I want to play Messiaen. There are still many pieces for our instrument, which look not so hard, but sound good :wink:


Ok...well...I look forward and will wait to hear some Messiaen played by you before I pass any final judgment. So now get off the computer and go practice, Hye-Jin! :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bach Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:43 am 
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Location: Germany
pianolady wrote:
Quote:
well, I just checked out some Messiaen music and now I don't think I will try playing it. Looks too hard and also too 'weird' for my taste. Unless someone says to me, "Monica, you have to look at (insert name of piece here) because it's very beautiful or cool-sounding and not too difficult. Then I'll look again at Messiaen.

Though I'm a supporter of modern music, I also don't feel attracted too much by Messiaen. But coolsounding it is in every case!

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