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 Post subject: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:43 pm 
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Continuing with the Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12 from 1901 by Georgy Catoire (1861-1926), here is his Morceau No. 4, the “Etude-fantastique”. This one piece in the set bears a dedication to Alexander Goedicke (1877-1957), a colleague, pianist (who had studied with Safonov), composer and professor at the Moscow Conservatory in Catoire’s day. The piece opens in F#m, later travels through E flat, and ends enharmonically in G flat mimicking the F#m tonic heard early in the piece. I hope you’ll enjoy the etude.

To preview, No. 3, “Nocturne”, will be posted next completing Op. 12.

Piano: Baldwin Model L Artist Grand (6’3”) with lid raised on the singer prop.
Recorder: Korg MR-1000
Mics: Matched pair of Earthworks TC20 small diaphragm, omni-directional condenser mics in A-B configuration

There are a few fluffs, but this is a hard piece to play.

Comments welcome.

David

Catoire - Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique (4:19)

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Last edited by Rachfan on Sun May 09, 2010 4:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 12:30 am 
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hi, David!

so this is the much waited Etude Fantastique! :D
you said you wanted to play the entire opus, but probably this one would take a long time of practice.

I enjoyed very much the piece, though no one will take the place of Soirée d'hiver to me, haha. I have such an sick relationship with that piece :!:

there's only one thing... your page turn at 2'08 was really distracting. I appreaciate your intention of recording full takes... but don't you think that editing could take a place when page turn without interrupting the flow of the music is impossible?

anyway, nice achievement!

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 12:37 am 
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Hi Felipe,

I appreciate your comments. There are some mistakes in there, but it's a difficult piece. At the moment I feel as though I've "plateaued" with the piece. Perhaps if I were to return to it later, I could fix some of those fluffs.

I'll see if I can edit the page turn. I'm not too expert with that stuff. I have a hard time with intuitive programs with no apparent logic to them.

Thanks for listening. :)

David

P.S. I just took care of the page turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:59 am 
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As usual you make a convincing case for this music. This must be a hard one to master, and you are doing fine despite a few small technical issues - they don't distract at all. Good work !!! It is up on the site.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Hi Chris,

Thanks for your kind words!

When I was first thinking of doing this etude, my first thought was that it might be best left to the virtuoso pianist, as I cannot realistically hope to play it as well as Hamelin or Attwood. Next, I thought that it would be easier to leave this athletic piece to the younger pianists. Then too, I have a phobia about 16th notes. :lol: (Excuses, excuses!) But as forbidding as the piece is, I did indeed want to play all of Op. 12. So... I knocked down Catoire's "No Trespassing" sign in the first measure and proceeded to learn it. You're quite right, there are some devilish technical issues in there, especially for the amateur pianist, which caused a few fluffs. I think if I let some time go by and then return to it another day, I could smooth out some of those nettlesome spots and add some nice touches that I didn't quite achieve in this initial round.

Thanks for listening.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:57 pm 
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hi, David!

the flow is better now that you have edited, but now we hear a "clip". hehe

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:07 pm 
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Hi David,

I haven't felt like listening to anybody lately, but you consistently listen to me so I like to return the favor. And I'm glad I did - this sounded very nice. And hard!!! Sounds like about a million notes! How long did it take for you to learn?

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:53 pm 
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Hi Felipe,

Sorry about the clip. That's the first edit I've ever tried, and thought it was pretty good. Can't win. :( I gave up on Audacity and used AVS. At least it's better than the former.

David

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Last edited by Rachfan on Mon May 10, 2010 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:08 pm 
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Hi Monica,

Thanks for listening to the etude! Yes, it's a daunting piece, especially for pianists like me who have less than a "big technique". On the million notes as you put it, to me it sounds almost like three hands playing, because the melody and accompaniment are in the RH with the LH playing a harmonic accompaniment along with taking melody hand-offs from the RH at times. There are many technical complexities there.

It's hard to say how long I've been working on it exactly. I believe I started it around early March, but was studying it in tandem with the Op. 12 Nocturne, thus splitting my practice time. During the past two weeks, I worked only on the etude. Had I dedicated all of the time from the beginning to the etude, I could have posted it sooner. If I had to guess, I'd say I invested six weeks in it anyway of the limited time I have for practicing.

Thanks for your nice compliment! :)

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:19 pm 
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hi, David!

I admire your courage of not editing at all. I think the only recording of mine which has no edits is Elgar's Salut d'amour. And even so they have slips! This is something I'm trying to avoid at all in my recent recordings (slips, not edits. hehe)

Is this AVS program free? I like open source softwares, but I had no luck with Audacity. I pretty much prefer Wave Editor, from Nero. It has less features, but Audacity don't satisfy my needs.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:41 pm 
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If you guys are interested - a member of one of my other 'groups' just today posted information on free editing software. I have not checked it all out yet, but looks like some promising stuff.

here is the link:

http://miccontrol.com/#/micschool/7free ... orwindows/

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 9:14 pm 
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Thanks for that tip, Monica.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Hi David, congrats that you did so well with this gorgeous piece! This is the kind of music which I would never dare to try :? Just from listening I could imagine how difficult it is to play. But at the same time I believe such a brave challenge builds a part of the life of amateur pianists, doesn't it? We grow up as pianists with that and so we're getting better...
Anyway it's unbelievable that you spent only six weeks for this hard piece. It would take me six months to reach the level of your performance!

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:25 pm 
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Hi hyenal,

Thanks so much for the nice praise. I appreciate that!

I have to admit that at first undertaking this very forbidding piece seemed like a terrifying prospect. But I remember the words of Josef Hofmann, "Will it!" So that's basically what I did. Luckily it worked out well. If I were to revisit it later, I'm sure I could polish some things and add some nuances. And I agree with you, whether we're amateurs or not, we can always continue to grow in the art of the piano.

Thanks for listening!

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 4:34 pm 
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Bravo David! You've grabbed the bull by the horns on this piece. It is beautifully played as your intensity always remains musical and well poised in control. In such a grand piece as this, those recording peaks can really creep up on us. Stylistically, there are also some elements of Scriabin which I like within the piece. This is a great achievement, David! What's next?....

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:38 pm 
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Hi George,

Thanks for the compliments! "Taking the bull by the horns" is a good analogy. To me it felt like grappling with a titanic force of nature! :lol: This is a piece where I doubt you can ever declare victory. In the dark struggle with the piece you must eke out a draw and plan to re-engage it another day. You're quite right about the Scriabin influence. Catoire was also influenced by Tchaikovsky, Faure and Wagner. Stylistically I find late romanticism, impressionism and expressionism in his music.

To finish up Op. 12 I'm pulling together No. 3, the "Nocturne". Typical of Catoire, he's inserted some challenges there as well. Thanks for listening!

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 11:37 am 
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I can't imagine what the source of your fears on adequate technique might be, David. I was reading the comments while listening and I honestly think you are being a little harsh on yourself. I heard a professional performance. You sound very sure about your stylistic choices and risks taken - essentially in such music. If there are things above your level, you surely know how to hide them. To me, the flow is right and natural and you say what you want to say as usual, in a very musical manner.


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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Hi Pantelis,

I'm glad you had a moment to listen to this Catoire etude and enjoyed it! I very much appreciate your thoughts on my playing too. Yes, I can achieve a musical intention, but I've never been great with faster tempi with intricate figurations. I don't know if it's because I don't read the notes fast enough, or lack coordination, or lack dexterity in my hands. I have read that this has everything to do with the nervous system and muscle motor response, which varies by person. For example, those Scarlatti pieces you play so beautifully? I wouldn't dare to touch one of them! So usually I confine my efforts to the lyrical side of the repertoire where I feel much more secure. It's only when I find a "must play" piece, feel adventurous, and become determined, do I have a chance of succeeding with it. I'm glad this etude worked as well as it did, although in the future I need to revisit it to smooth some things out, add some nuances, and do more with the dynamics. But at least I have it working in a respectable way at the moment. Thanks again for your reassurances about this performance. It means a lot to me.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 8:39 pm 
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I very much second Pantelis' comment. The only substantial difference between amateurs and professionals should be in quantity, not in quality (I'm loosely quoting a great pianist's remark, can't remember whom, maybe Hofmann): a smaller working repertoire, an inferior mechanism, less stamina, but certainly not less musicality and artistic consciousness. There's not a single moment in that etude that you don't solve musically and in that sense you own, presumably not a shining mechanism, but by all means a very good technique.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:52 pm 
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Hi Alfonso,

Thanks for your thought-provoking response! I believe that what you mention is very probably true. I can tell you that I'm definitely my own worst critic. To an extent that's a very good attribute, as it causes me to listen carefully to myself as I play. But the danger lies in being overly critical. After all, we're all mortals! Back in the 1960s when I was a teenager, I recall my first teacher saying that despite any technical difficulties, I always knew how to put a piece over to an audience. Probably I should be thankful for that particular attribute, which is certainly essential to artistic performance. It might be that I "sweat the small stuff too much" as they say. Come to think of it, I recall in Arthur Rubinstein's autobiography, "My Early Years", his mentioning that while a young student could probably play a certain passage with her left foot, he could execute it with only the utmost effort. Goes to show that even the most successful professionals have those same kinds of concerns sometimes. (That's why I don't watch child prodigies on YouTube!) After all is said and done, you have to believe in yourself. I need to remind myself of that occasionally. Thanks again for your thoughts.

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Last edited by Rachfan on Mon May 10, 2010 4:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:53 am 
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Thank you gentlemen, for sharing your profound thinking about being an artist. This topic always addresses me very much.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 4:40 am 
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Hi Hye-Jin,

I'm glad you found that dialog of interest. I too believe that it's a fascinating topic. Also I suspect that many pianists think about the fine line between the touring artist and the accomplished amateur relative to command of technique, which is the means to attain artistry in order to effectively communicate one's interpretation and musical intents to an audience.

In playing a good deal of Catoire's music to date, I always first sit down away from the piano to analyze any given score as one should. But I've also concluded that Catoire is a deep thinker and that most of his inspiration lies well-hidden below the surface. To find Catoire, one will not discover him through his musical notation or the sketchy biographical facts that we know; rather one must search for him between the lines of his music. That's where his greatness is to be found. For that reason I now play his music more by instinct than by logic, and I find by doing so that the technique of pianism mostly takes care of itself.

Thanks for stopping by this thread to comment.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Hi David,
that´s an impressive performance of a demanding piece. From my view it´s no problem, that there are some little imperfections here and there, because you play it very virtuosly, expressively and with a first class musicality, like the great old pianists also have done. If we listen to Fischer, Rubinstein, Horrowitz and others, we find exact the same phenomenon.
A great performance of first rate for me!

I have edited your little page-turn on the pen-ultimate page and I have put some of the post-processing to it, which I usually add also to my recordings. May be you like it. If not, it´s no problem, of course. It´s just a friendly meant option and your recording is also excellent like it is.

Btw, have you recorded op. 12, no. 3 yet? Somehow it´s missing on my hard-disc. I have looked on my hard-disc and found the numbers 1, 2 and 4 of op. 12 by Catoire performed by you until now.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:12 pm 
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Hi Andreas,

Thank you so much for your comments on my playing! I really appreciate those coming from you, as I so much enjoy hearing your recordings and videos. I agree with your viewpoint. If one can convincingly communicate the composer's intent to the listener through musicianship and musicality, that is the final test of a performance or recording. In the total scheme of things, the occasional minor error is not so important. In today's world of the flawless CD, we become used to perfection, but really need to think of "the greats" in live performance you mentioned. And you're right--I can recall some fluffs in Horowitz's Moscow recital as an example, or Richter's "klinkers" in his stunning recording of "Pictures at an Exhibition", but those performances were nothing less than sensational. All of us should be inspired by their example and work toward that same aim.

I'm working on No. 3, the "Nocturne" now. :lol: The second half of this nocturne is very treacherous to play, so it's taking me longer than I had presumed it would. It's a lovely piece though. I won't be able to play it nearly as well as Hamelin, but I believe I can still do a creditable rendition for the members here.

Thanks for taking time to give that option for the edited recording. I listened to them both a few times to compare. To be honest, I think I still prefer the purity of sound in the original overall. I didn't much mind the page turn in the climax as it was fast, the crashing chord is still resonating, and then that very small delay just before the descending short cadenza there adds to the drama. It's almost like taking a quick breath to steel yourself for the effort demanded by that cadenza. You're certainly welcome to leave your edited version here though if you'd like, as others might want to hear it too.

I'm really glad that you liked my rendition, especially given the reservations I had about even undertaking the piece. :)

Your friend, David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:35 am 
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Hello David,

Congratulations on tackling this amazing étude! For six weeks of work it's quite an accomplishment. I didn't know Catoire, thanks for the introduction on his music. Keep up the great work!

There are so many great uknown russian composers...
Bortkiewicz, for instance, is one of those forgotten Russian composers. I can see that PS fortunatly has a number of his compositions, but none of his op.15 études, for instance, which are amazing. One day I'd like to record no.8 for the site:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNc-P3s_HSo

Best,
Alexandre


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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:21 am 
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Hi Alexandre,

Thanks for your kind words! Yes, it is an amazing etude. Unlike Chopin who preferred to feature a particular element of technique in an etude, Catoire included very diverse problems of technique in this Etude-fantastique. For that reason it was a tall challenge for me, but I'm glad I persevered and recorded it.

On the 6 weeks learning time, it's quite hard to estimate, as I was practicing another piece in conjunction with the etude, thus splitting my time between the two. Toward the end, I was actually making better progress on the etude, so temporarily dropped the companion piece to focus on the etude alone. So I can't be too precise in the matter given the time allocations. The 6 weeks might be fairly accurate, but I'd feel safe using 7 weeks as the outermost estimate. I can tell you that when I practice, I am always focused, concentrating deeply, and efficient in my approaches. Because my practice time is limited, I try hard not to waste a moment of it. I was very inspired by this piece, determined to conquer it, and loved practicing it. So I surprised myself once it was ready to record. I'll probably revisit it sometime in the future, as there are some other things I'd like to try with it. No piece is ever truly finished.

I contributed most of the Bortkiewicz recordings here at Piano Society. I had good intentions of continuing on, but became fascinated with Catoire, so have been surveying that repertoire more recently. I will be revisiting Bortkiewicz for sure, and may eventually get to a few of the etudes. Yes, the Op. 15, No. 8 is so incredibly beautiful, isn't it? The Diaz video is good, but you might like the Koji Attwood video even more, plus he performs three other etudes in addition to No. 8. Link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui5RxiKKhRo

Thanks again for listening to my recording.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Hello David,

I'm glad you did most of the Bortkiewicz on PS. I will listen to them soon.

>Yes, the Op. 15, No. 8 is so incredibly beautiful, isn't it?
Yes, the "wedding étude"

>The Diaz video is good, but you might like the Koji Attwood video even more, plus he >performs three other etudes in addition to No. 8. Link:

I think Attwood does an excellent job in spite of a few misreadings and rushing over some of the cantabiles. Although the video by this Dias guy has many mistakes, somehow I relate more to it :wink:

All the Op.15 études are amazing. Katsaris has recorded a full Bortkiewicz album, which has contributes a lot to preserving his memory.

Best,
Alexandre Dias


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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:29 pm 
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Hi Alexandre,

I was lucky to get the Stephen Coombs recording of many of Bortkiewicz's works on Hyperion. Unfortunately, the Katsaris recording is no longer available, although Cyrprien Katsaris lists some of them on his website for those who wish to listen. The few people who play and record Bortkiewicz today are probably the first since Hugo Van Dalen, the Dutch pianist and close friend of Bortkiewicz, who championed the composer's piano works during the 1950s. Since then there have been decades of neglect of this gorgeous music. Maybe the tide is turning now.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:34 am 
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Can't say I care much for this music per se, which to my ears sounds emotionally shallow and structurally and pianistically derivative. However, as Chris said, I think you make a convincing case for it. Nicely orchestrated with a wide dynamic palette. I particularly liked the wavelike crescendo effects and the sweet sonority of the final chord. Well done!

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:10 am 
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Hi jlr,

Thanks for listening! This etude is a devilish piece to play in many respects, so I really appreciate your kind compliments. Doing those "wave" crescendos and diminuendos (sometimes we refer to that aspect as "dynamic contour") is usually fairly easy for me; however, because of the very busy figuration where it's required, I found it much more difficult to execute it as well in this piece. If I were to return to this piece in the future, I would try to do even more with the dynamics. I'm pleased you found my performance convincing. That alone makes having learned the piece worthwhile, as it's a joy for me to play and raise awareness of Catoire's music.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 9:44 am 
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Rachfan wrote:
Quote:
Thank you so much for your comments on my playing! I really appreciate those coming from you, as I so much enjoy hearing your recordings and videos. I agree with your viewpoint. If one can convincingly communicate the composer's intent to the listener through musicianship and musicality, that is the final test of a performance or recording. In the total scheme of things, the occasional minor error is not so important. In today's world of the flawless CD, we become used to perfection, but really need to think of "the greats" in live performance you mentioned. And you're right--I can recall some fluffs in Horowitz's Moscow recital as an example, or Richter's "klinkers" in his stunning recording of "Pictures at an Exhibition", but those performances were nothing less than sensational. All of us should be inspired by their example and work toward that same aim.


I second that. That´s the right aim!

Quote:
I'm working on No. 3, the "Nocturne" now. :lol: The second half of this nocturne is very treacherous to play, so it's taking me longer than I had presumed it would. It's a lovely piece though. I won't be able to play it nearly as well as Hamelin, but I believe I can still do a creditable rendition for the members here.


Ah, very good, so I´m curious on your next recording.

Quote:
Thanks for taking time to give that option for the edited recording. I listened to them both a few times to compare. To be honest, I think I still prefer the purity of sound in the original overall. I didn't much mind the page turn in the climax as it was fast, the crashing chord is still resonating, and then that very small delay just before the descending short cadenza there adds to the drama. It's almost like taking a quick breath to steel yourself for the effort demanded by that cadenza. You're certainly welcome to leave your edited version here though if you'd like, as others might want to hear it too.


No problem you prefer your own original, of course. Such matters are always only of personal taste. Could also be, that I cut off a bit too much between that chord and the descending cadenza. That´s what I thought while re-listening to my edited version today.

All the best,
your friend,
Andreas

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 12:42 am 
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Hi Andreas,

Thanks for your additional remarks. I'm glad that you're OK with my wanting to stick with my original recording. You're very understanding, and I appreciate and value that! :)

Your friend,
David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:58 am 
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lisztzsil wrote:
There are so many great uknown russian composers...
Bortkiewicz, for instance, is one of those forgotten Russian composers.

Alexandre, do you talk a lot with Gustavo, my cousin? I ask you this, because once he came to my house and played a ultra-romantic piece by a Russian composer, and it was Bortkiewicz!
I didn't know him at that time.
In fact, I still don't know. hehe

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:58 am 
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Hi Felipe, yes. He was introduced to Bortkiewicz the same way I was: through our teacher, Neusa França (which in turn was introduced to his music through her teacher, Magda Tagliaferro). He studied Op.15 No.1 and No.10, and I studied No.8.

Best,
Alexandre


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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:21 pm 
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David,
It's my turn to congratulate you for this great achievement ! I don't go to PS as often as I would like, and until today I never took time to listen any Catoire piece. You give me the desire to go forward in the discovery of this composer. Thanks !

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:19 am 
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Hi Francois,

Thanks for listening as well as for your kind comment! Here at Piano Society, if you visit Composers and then Catoire, you'll find many recordings there, as I've completed the sets for Op. 17, 24, and have nearly finished with Op. 12. The composing idiom is a little different between all of the opus numbers, so there is true variety there, yet they are all unmistakably Catoire. If you have time to listen to some of these pieces, I believe you'll enjoy them. Thanks again for your comments.

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:18 am 
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A late reply on my behalf, but I wanted to register my appreciation. You've done a lot to promote Catoire's music; thanks to you and Koji [Atwood] I've heard a lot of Catoire (and Bortkiewicz) which I would almost certainly have not heard otherwise. I've had a look at this piece and suspect it's probably quite hard to keep the 5 v 2 going coherently and consistently, to say nothing of the way melody notes occur just off beat at certain points. I look forward to more!

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:15 am 
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Hi andrew,

I appreciate your listening. And thanks for your observations on the score. Yes, there are many technical points there requiring constant attention. Any polyrhythms are one of the hallmarks of Catoire's idiom. I often say that Catoire and Bortkiewicz taught me how to play the piano, and in many too ways including the nettlesome polyrhythms. I've certainly had a lot of fun and enjoyment with these pieces.

Once I finish Op. 12, I'm not quite sure what I'll tackle next--still looking at possibilities. That's the wonderful thing about the vast piano repertoire, we're never at a loss for new pieces to play!

Thanks again!

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:53 pm 
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David, I think you should be looking into some Medtner for a next project. If you enjoy the combination of lush sonorities and nettlesome polyrhytms, Medtner's the man for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Hi Chris,

Ha! I think you just read my mind. I'm at an odd juncture in the Catoire repertoire, as Opp. 12, 17 and 24 are my favorites, and I'm just one piece away from completing those. And I'm feeling a need to take a break and do something else in the repertoire at the moment, thus mulling over other possibilities. There is indeed a Medtner piece that has sparked my interest, and, once I finish up with Catoire's "Nocturne", I might well move to Medtner, but I can't disclose the title yet, in order to keep folks wondering. :lol:

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:44 pm 
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Rachfan wrote:
Ha! I think you just read my mind.

Elementary, dear Watson :)
It was only a matter of time before you would turn to Medtner, and find everyting you find in Bortkiewicz and Catoire, and then some.
Any piece you pick is worth the effort. Though admittedly, some works are awfully long and winding.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:02 pm 
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Oh, Medtner is one of the composers that my favorite pianist Berezovky plays often! (again after Lyadov :D)
David wrote:
There is indeed a Medtner piece that has sparked my interest, and, once I finish up with Catoire's "Nocturne", I might well move to Medtner, but I can't disclose the title yet, in order to keep folks wondering. :lol:

Yes, you keep me wondering, too, David. Anyway, how exciting is the moment when we make the choice of the next pieces!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:08 pm 
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hyenal wrote:
Yes, you keep me wondering, too, David. Anyway, how exciting is the moment when we make the choice of the next pieces!!!

Sigh... I wish I could experience such an exciting moment. Choosing a next piece is like trying to take a drink from a firehose :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:45 am 
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Hi Chris and Hye-Jin,

Awhile back there was a lengthy thread where several of the members were discussing Medtner and encouraging me to look into that piano literature. I had found that Medtner's music did not appeal to me as much as some of the other late romanticists. Soon after that thread discussion I bought several CDs to sample more of his music, but was still not convinced. (I do though try to be fair and objective.) Well, on my own I found another piece, not on those CDs I purchased, but that captured my attention and inspired me immediately. So I'll be glad to play it, or try to anyway. Being new to Medtner's idiom, I don't know if I'll be able to interpret him as well as other pianists, but we'll see. If nothing else, my approach will certainly be different. :)

Deciding on new repertoire: I love that fire hose analogy! But the repertoire is so vast, maybe trying to drink from Niagara Falls would be the better description! :lol:

David

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:36 am 
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You might be interested in the Liapunov Nocturne as a complementary piece to the Catoire. It's op.8 and it's on imslp. Chopinesque, but with harmonies typical of Liapunov. I think it's a beautiful piece and have been intending to get around to learning it properly, but it's still in the "to do" pile.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:40 am 
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And then there's Glazunov ! Another marvellous Russian composer with a string body of piano music. And Cui, whose Preludes I find very impressive (but haven't tried them yet). I often wonder what it is with these Russians and the piano. They all seem to have a natural talent for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:49 pm 
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Hi andrew and Chris,

Yes, Liapunoff has been on my to-do list, so I'll definitely have a look at that nocturne you mentioned. He wrote some wonderful pieces. I think, for example, of "Nuit d'ete"
from the Transcendental Etudes that you recorded, andrew--superb! Oftentimes Liapunoff's music is very accessible, but other times it's terrifically difficult to play.

Glazunov wrote some fine piano works too. I was completely unaware of the Cui Preludes though. Of "The Five", Balakirev, Borodine, Mussourgsky, and Korsakov have become household names to musicians. But Cesar Cui somehow always seemed to me to be much less known. Probably that's why his name didn't occur to me relative to the piano literature. But Catoire wasn't well known either! I'll have to check into those preludes. Thanks for mentioning them.

David

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Last edited by Rachfan on Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:21 pm 
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Rachfan wrote:
Glazunov wrote some fine piano works too. I was completely unaware of the Cui Preludes though. Of "The Five", Balakirev, Borodine, Mussourgsky, and Korsakov have become household names to musicians. But Cesar Cui somehow always seemed to me to be much less known. Probably that's why his name didn't occur to me relative to the piano literature. But Catoire wasn't well known either! I'll have to check into those preludes. Thanks for mentioning them.

They're all on YouTube. Of the mighty kooshka, Cui was IMHO the better piano composer after Balakirev. Borodin didn't write anything of substance, Rimsky only a handful of moderately interesting things (though his piano concerto is rather good) and Moussorgsky would have been marginal were it not for the Pictures. Glazunov, all of his piano works are very fine if occasionally a little academic. I still plan to record his Theme and Variations, though I got side-tracked as usual. I've given up on the Preludes and Fugues - they're just too damn difficult and long :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Catoire, Quatre Morceaux, Op. 12, No. 4, Etude-fantastique
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:38 pm 
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lisztzsil wrote:
H

I think Attwood does an excellent job in spite of a few misreadings and rushing over some of the cantabiles. Although the video by this Dias guy has many mistakes, somehow I relate more to it :wink:

All the Op.15 études are amazing. Katsaris has recorded a full Bortkiewicz album, which has contributes a lot to preserving his memory.

Best,
Alexandre Dias



To clarify, they're not misreadings (whether one approves of them or not), but rather conscious textual emendations (as Cyprien and I often are prone to do).


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