Piano Society
Free Classical Keyboard Recordings
It is currently Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:47 pm

All times are UTC - 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:02 pm
Posts: 1167
Location: Piemonte, Italy
Bach's Italian Concerto certainly doesn't need to be introduced. On the PS site there are already many versions and I see that another one has been recently posted in AR. Now, I hope you don't get bored with mine, I enjoyed a lot practicing it and tried to instill in it some of those high-spirited moments.


Bach - Italian Concerto BWV 971 - 1st movement

Bach - Italian Concerto BWV 971 - 2nd movement

Bach - Italian Concerto BWV 971 - 3rd movement

_________________
"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking" - Anonymous

Alfonso Bertazzi, amateur pianist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:45 pm
Posts: 151
As usually, I'm deeply impressed by the incredible amount of precision you put in your recordings. Did you use some computer software to create this sound? It fits very well on baroque music!

_________________
The internet will eat us...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:03 pm
Posts: 2388
Location: Obamanation, unfortunately...
:shock:

Quit your day job.

_________________
Madam, what makes you think that I play with my hands?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:02 pm
Posts: 1167
Location: Piemonte, Italy
Juufa, I cannot afford to get poorer than I currently am! :twisted:


Casper89 wrote:
As usually, I'm deeply impressed by the incredible amount of precision you put in your recordings. Did you use some computer software to create this sound? It fits very well on baroque music!


Not to sure to understand what you mean by "precision". If you intend "details", yes I work a lot on details, but in the end there are always shortcomings (at least, to my ears). I hope I succeed in conveying some strong ideas I have about the works I play, though.

Concerning the sound, the pipeline is the same as usual: me playing on the Kawai MP8 - Adobe Audition to record and cut/splice - SIR plugin for the reverb. But this time, I converted the recording to dual-channel mono. This should prevent one conspicous defect of stereo recordings of digital pianos, i.e. the lows standing out at the left and the highs at the right, which is fine while you are playing, but ridiculously bogus when you listen to it as a recording.

_________________
"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking" - Anonymous

Alfonso Bertazzi, amateur pianist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:33 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8511
These are up, Alfonso. I think you played very nicely and I'll trust that you got all correct notes and rhythm in the 1st and 3rd movements; I have never played these so I don't know the details. I liked your tempo in the 2nd movement but there is something that bothered me a little, which is that you often delay your RH in coming down - almost like you were trying to make it rubato except to me it only sounded like something was off. I won't be surprised if you tell me that that is how it is supposed to go - that the way I play it is wrong. I'm used that happening - we all know that I know beans about playing Bach. Oh well, this is up on the site.

one more thing - I also noticed that you play some of the ornaments different than I do and also our last member who submitted this piece. At least we can say that visitors to Piano Society get to hear a wide variety of ornaments played by members!

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:14 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Illinois
Alf,

Your performance and interpretation of these movements are well done. I particularly enjoy your 2nd movement. The balance among the bass, the accompaniment duet and the melody is superb. Your rubato is well played and fits the movement well. I also like the joy and vitality that you give the final movement although at 1:04 (the ritornello in C) it seems a little strange. For me, though, I would like a little more crispness in the first movement rhythm.

As far as the sound, I believe that you are getting some phase cancellation by mixing the stereo image into mono. The fast movements have the feel of some phase shifting. If you want to do just a mono recording, you might just try recording from the one mono jack as opposed to connecting the two jacks for stereo and then mixing down.

Scott

_________________
"I never do anything always." - Pablo Casals


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:09 pm
Posts: 367
Location: Athens, Greece
I really enjoyed your playing of the Italian Concerto, Alf. Second movement is impressive. Very well done.
I also liked your phrasing in the last movement which can be quite tricky at some places. This is a fine Bach performance.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:17 pm
Posts: 418
Location: Boston
I enjoyed listening to all three movements. It is beautifully played throughout. Indeed, they are very spirited and musical performances.

_________________
"Nobility of spirit has more to do with simplicity than ostentation, wisdom rather than wealth, commitment rather than ambition." ~Riccardo Muti


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:02 pm
Posts: 1167
Location: Piemonte, Italy
pianolady wrote:
I think you played very nicely and I'll trust that you got all correct notes and rhythm in the 1st and 3rd movements;


Thank you Monica, I do hope I got all correct in the outer movements!

pianolady wrote:
I liked your tempo in the 2nd movement but there is something that bothered me a little, which is that you often delay your RH in coming down - almost like you were trying to make it rubato except to me it only sounded like something was off.


Well, actually RH should come down also before the LH, sort of hurrying and delaying against the supposed steady beat of the LH. This kind of rubato, that Sandra Rosenblum in her Performance Practices in Classic Piano Music (recommended!) calls "contrametric rubato" (from Emanuel Bach's definition wider den Tact, ie "against the meter") is the typical 18th-century rubato, as opposed to the usual agogic rubato in fashion since the 19th century. Of course, what is right in principle may well be sh***ly implemented, as in my case. In fact I like experimenting but I'm not sure I'm always successful in what I do - very glad that others like the Andante, though. Harpsichordists are usually more into developing a taste for that practice (here's a remarkable example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSFTsxpBqrQ). Andreas Staier plays it even more rubato, but unfortunately there's not on YT. And by the way, did you notice how this contrametric rubato is deeply embedded in the writing itself of the Andante?

RSPIll wrote:
Your performance and interpretation of these movements are well done. I particularly enjoy your 2nd movement. The balance among the bass, the accompaniment duet and the melody is superb. Your rubato is well played and fits the movement well. I also like the joy and vitality that you give the final movement although at 1:04 (the ritornello in C) it seems a little strange. For me, though, I would like a little more crispness in the first movement rhythm.


Thank you Scott. Concerning the far-out moment at 1:04, you know, I've been emphasizing that passage since the very first approach to the score but couldn't really understand why. Later, looking better, I realized that Bach, by means of a simple change of register, creates the aural illusion of augmenting the "g-g-f-e-d" main motif you hear two bars later. Quite a trompe l'oreille, and absolutely unexpected here.

RSPIll wrote:
As far as the sound, I believe that you are getting some phase cancellation by mixing the stereo image into mono. The fast movements have the feel of some phase shifting. If you want to do just a mono recording, you might just try recording from the one mono jack as opposed to connecting the two jacks for stereo and then mixing down.


I am aware of that problem but the stereo-to-mono mixdown is the lesser of two evils. In fact, I can't properly do what you suggest because my piano doesn't have its own amp/speaker system but relies on the PC soundboard/speakers. If I record from the one mono jack (that is the left channel) it ends up that I play while listening from the left channel alone, not a viable solution for me.

George and Pantelis, I want to thank you too for your appreciation.

_________________
"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking" - Anonymous

Alfonso Bertazzi, amateur pianist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:26 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:38 pm
Posts: 8511
alf wrote:
Well, actually RH should come down also before the LH, sort of hurrying and delaying against the supposed steady beat of the LH. This kind of rubato, that Sandra Rosenblum in her Performance Practices in Classic Piano Music (recommended!) calls "contrametric rubato" (from Emanuel Bach's definition wider den Tact, ie "against the meter") is the typical 18th-century rubato, as opposed to the usual agogic rubato in fashion since the 19th century. Of course, what is right in principle may well be sh***ly implemented, as in my case. In fact I like experimenting but I'm not sure I'm always successful in what I do - very glad that others like the Andante, though. Harpsichordists are usually more into developing a taste for that practice (here's a remarkable example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSFTsxpBqrQ). Andreas Staier plays it even more rubato, but unfortunately there's not on YT. And by the way, did you notice how this contrametric rubato is deeply embedded in the writing itself of the Andante?


No - actually I do not see how that kind of rubato is embedded. Looks to me like everything is lined up all prim and proper. But to embarrassingly show how ignorant I am regarding Bach - I did not know that rubato was even allowed! Perhaps you all have discussed this before - I rarely read the Bach posts so I don't know. Still, I love this second movement and think that it sounds best without rubato. To each his/her own, right? Btw - next time you want to play this, turn off all lights and use only candlelight. Magical!

_________________
"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:45 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Germany
Hi Alfonso,
I think, you have done an excellent recording here of a high artistic range! I will burn them on a CD and listen more than one times to it.
To the 1st movement: Bravo, I´m enthused! You have built in so much delightful and enjoyable artistic moments here (and also in the other movements). First, I like your creative arpeggios, that´s how I imagine artistic playing of baroque music (I think, the musicians of that time have played like that). I love, how the forte comes in in bar 52 with a strong and healthy staccato! That´s temperament and it reminds me a bit of Andras Schiffs manner to play Bach (he is Hungarian and has a lot of temperament and musicality like the Italians are said to have, too, for what you are one of the best proofs!). Very nice is the voicing in the measures 65-68, where you underline one times the right hand and one time the left in change.
To the 2nd movement: I think, you have choosen exactly the right tempo and you have catched the atmosphere of a balance between silence (calmness of tempo) and chopiness in a splendid measure! Bravo! Very creative (and unusual) is the trill in bar 17. I like how you handle the ornamentations, it´s great.
To the 3rd movement: that´also a very good rendition. I think, you have choosen a good tempo, in which one can really make music, not too fast, not too slow. When I practised on this movement for to record it for PS I very often listened to Glenn Goulds version and somehow I wanted it to play also very fast, which isn´t the best for this movement (I think, I also made a compromise then), because there are so nice musical moments in it. You have done a convincing and artistic interpretation with much nice details, so much, that it would take too long to list them up all here. So, I would like to mention some of the beautifullest from my view: there is entirely a very interesting and lively articulation, in the bars 38 to 43 there is a very subtil and interesting voicing, in the bars 104-108 there is a special nice agogic (these bars are much easilier to play, when they are played musically and not like metronom IMO), when the subject starts on the dominant in bar 65 it´s marked with a good and temperamentfull forte and a little ritenuto at the beginning (so also in the reprise in bar 153).

Your recording of the Italian Concerto shows entirely your subtle and thoughtful agogic, which I like so much!

_________________
Link to my videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/musicusblau


Last edited by musicusblau on Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:56 pm
Posts: 553
This was really excellent! It is the best interpretation of the Italian Concerto I have ever heard


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:14 pm
Posts: 844
Location: Germany
I've never studied this work, so I cannot comment on details. However, I'm very impressed by all the things there I can notice on your recording!
The first mov.: Sometimes I hear harp, sometimes harpsichord. This illusion was created, I guess, by your original arpeggios and well-thought articulations together with the unique sound. (Did you use the "Concert Grand" sound as usual?) The "Italian" flair throughout your rendition is very enjoyable. Beside these your rendition has so many nice things which I cannot name on detail. You know, your playing of this opening mov. is (at least to me) so original that it catchs the listener's ears and never lets them go until the ending of the last movement.
The second one: Incredibly beautiful. I'm very often got bored from listening to Bach's slow mov. (Sorry Chris :wink: ), but no single moment on this recording is boring. I think one needs "a strong idea" as you mentioned to achieve such a performance, indeed. Could you reveal your ideas about this movement?
The third one: Fast movements of Bach hide a danger that they easily make their performer rushing without thinking, I think. But your rendition is very well structured. I could find even a drama there.
Bravo, Alfonso!

_________________
Hye-Jin Lee
"The love for music. The respect for the composer. The desire to express something that reaches and moves the listener." (Montserrat Caballé about her main motivation for becoming a singer)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:02 pm
Posts: 1167
Location: Piemonte, Italy
pianolady wrote:
Btw - next time you want to play this, turn off all lights and use only candlelight. Magical!


Monica, I light the candles only when there's a power shortage. But my piano doesn't work then! :P

_________________
"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking" - Anonymous

Alfonso Bertazzi, amateur pianist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bach - Italian Concerto
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:02 pm
Posts: 1167
Location: Piemonte, Italy
Thank you all, Andreas, Raymond and Hye-Jin.

Andreas, did you know that Schiff lives in Italy now (near Florence, I think)? Some years ago he founded a small ensemble, called "Cappella Andrea Barca, after the Italian translation of his name.

HJ, I'm referring to musical ideas, so they're more easily shown at the piano than verbally explained. For me it's enough that you, Andreas and others notice them and enjoy. Music making should be just about that.

_________________
"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking" - Anonymous

Alfonso Bertazzi, amateur pianist.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group