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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:56 am 
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88man wrote:
You must be having so much fun learning 25/11...... NOT! :P They say it's the most devilish to play.

I suppose I can see why. It's also very, very, VERY satisfying to play, at well below performance tempo. Very rewarding work, and I have to fight myself to keep from practicing 5 or 6 hours every day on it. Chopin said no more than 3! :lol: But I would say that 10/4 is the most 'devlish'. There are a few I think are more difficult than 25/11 obviously, but I think that some might agree that 10/4 is one of them. 25/11 has a sense of gravity, perfect weights and balances, that 10/4 does not have IMO. That is what makes it more difficult for me.

88man wrote:
I don't envy you having to learn all these etudes, but I can respect you for taking on the challenge of doing so. I looked over your list, I would place 10/2 Am and 25/6 G#m in the most difficult category for my hands. Wow! You must have very agile fingers?

Not really. I have actually worked on 25/6 and I think it's not so difficult as many others, even though I didn't quite get it to performance tempo. I am not very good. :lol: But Alfie and I have been arguing about 10/2 in email, and since I have never really worked hard on this one, I will have to concede that I probably have no idea what I am talking about.

88man wrote:
25/12 and 25/1 are not difficult once you start learning them, it's just an endurance issue. Pssst: Finger push ups help! :wink:

I am not so sure any more that endurance is exactly the right word for what these two require. I think that the arm/wrist/finger technique must be just exactly so, and if it's not, then the tension will cause damage whether or not your 'endurance' is good. I am still thinking of peppering my senior recital with several from op. 25; probably 1, 6, 11, and 12, but I don't think I will play them as a group. Probably open the program with 25/1, then play maybe some Debussy and a Beethoven sonata, and end the first half with 25/11. Then open the second half with 25/6, then play the Bach c minor partita, then end with 25/12. If I can do it.

Quote:
But, if your piano's action is stiff, you may run out of steam fast.

I have a piano to practice on in my teacher's office - a Kawai that's been reworked a lot - that is wonderfully fluid and delicate. Can't get a sound out of it, but I imagine it's similar to the sort of piano that Chopin loved. I prefer playing on the Steinway in the recital hall of course - I love that sound - but I try not to treat it as a practice piano too often. It makes me feel guilty. There is another piano in my teacher's office - a Howard, also heavily reworked - that has stiff action, and my teacher uses it to practice because it makes performance easier, but I can't do it. Plus, she has hand injuries, and she concedes that it's probably because she's always favored practice pianos with stiff action.

88man wrote:
BTW, why don't you post any recordings of this great repertoire?... I'd love to hear more Chopin Etudes on PS...

I don't have any recording equipment. Maybe one day I can afford some, and then I will record the ones I have worked on. I might play 25/11 for recital class, and if I do, there will be a recording, but the sound will probably not be all that great, and since it's live (in front of a few hundred music students) there is bound to be an error or three that I just can't live with, lol. But I will probably post it in the general forum for the curious, as usual.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:05 am 
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Op31n2 wrote:
Maybe it's just my problems with grace notes, but (yes, I meant 10/1) I found 25/1 to be a real difficulty. The butterfly is a matter of figuring out the chord progression, and the pattern is all there for you. Meh, I don't know any pianists at my school (which is by far, NOT a school of music - 13 majors, 50+ minors, I was the only piano major that graduated in 2k7) that doesn't know it.

Oh, I agree that 25/1 is much more difficult than 25/9 (even though a friend of mine who is playing all of Op. 25 thinks that even 25/9 is difficult because the pattern is tiring, and the stretching). I would just disagree that 10/6 is more difficult than 25/9; I don't see how anyone could argue that any of the etudes is less difficult in terms of technique than 10/6. Yes, it requires some clever fingering (which is given for you!), and musical sensitivity, but they all do. Yes, it has some weird accidentals, but so do many of the others, and also, reading accidentals is nothing compared to what is required in the other 23 etudes in terms of technique.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:45 pm 
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Yes Terez, 10/4 and 25/11 are both devilish to play at tempo. You know you're in for a treat when the tempo is marked 'Presto con fuoco!' Practicing 5 to 6 hours a day is remarkable dedication. I've often wondered how long one chooses or needs to practice. Perhaps it may depend on your aims in music: Performance or Teaching?... When growing up, it seemed I had all the time to practice, but I didn't have a great piano. The biggest tease of my life is having a gorgeous Steinway B, but not having time to practice 1 hour a week... Hopefully at 40, I can work a 4-day schedule and play more music?!... I am optimistic! :D

Terez wrote:
Quote:
I am not so sure any more that endurance is exactly the right word for what these two require. I think that the arm/wrist/finger technique must be just exactly so, and if it's not, then the tension will cause damage whether or not your 'endurance' is good.
You're right, I used the word 'endurance' loosely to describe the cumulative effects of repetition on tension when playing Etudes. As far as finger strength exercises go, one can easily do finger push ups by leaning against a wall to start. My thought is that once you develop finger strength only up to a point, you can decrease the overall tension slightly, and hence increase 'endurance.' Gearing up for an Etude marathon is all about tension and release (relaxation) cycles, arm/wrist height, back position, chair height, gravity, etc. This reminds me of a discussion I had about tendon physiology and injury (9th thread down): viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4164&start=0

Terez wrote:
Quote:
I am still thinking of peppering my senior recital with several from op. 25; probably 1, 6, 11, and 12, but I don't think I will play them as a group. Probably open the program with 25/1, then play maybe some Debussy and a Beethoven sonata, and end the first half with 25/11. Then open the second half with 25/6, then play the Bach c minor partita, then end with 25/12. If I can do it.
That's a quite a bit of hot pepper on your plate!... Great, when will the tickets go on sale?... Most of the Etudes you mentioned are tension builders. Perhaps it may look better to play one less Etude in order to keep the Etudes as a group? However, the order you mentioned can certainly work too. In any case, good luck in your challenging program!

George

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:40 am 
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88man wrote:
Great, when will the tickets go on sale?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Super-bump. I just figured I'd see if anyone else felt like talking about Chopin etudes. I just started working on 10/1 yesterday, which I've never tried to play before. I have always been disparaging of this etude in comparison to others, because I always found it relatively uninteresting musically, but after two days I'm starting to see why people like working on it so much.

Also working on these (some of them I have been playing for a while):

10/2
10/3
10/4
10/6
25/1
25/6
25/7
25/11
25/12

I might also try 10/8, 10/9 ,10/11 and 10/12, and maybe also 25/10. Not sure yet. Since my recital requirements are complete, I don't have to work on anything else right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:14 am 
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I sense a Complete Set in the making :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:23 pm 
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techneut wrote:
I sense a Complete Set in the making :D

haha, maybe one day. I thought about it, but for now I'd rather work on the best etudes in both sets rather than one complete set. There's no way I could make myself practice 25/2-5 when I could do 10/1-4 instead, etc. And everyone says 10/5 is really easy but I have never liked it much, and it seems really hard to me. Was also happy to discover that Chopin himself didn't like 10/5 much; when he discovered that Clara Schumann was going to play it at a concert, he said she would have been better off playing nothing at all. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Or, you could try something else than Chopin and Bach for once. You know, broaden your horizons a bit ? There are other composers out there....

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:59 pm 
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Yes, like Granados! 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:00 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Or, you could try something else than Chopin and Bach for once. You know, broaden your horizons a bit ? There are other composers out there....

You say that as if I've never tried other composers before. I know there are other composers out there; I just don't like them as much as Bach and Chopin. At least I have good taste.

Monica - I have liked some of the Granados stuff you've posted. But I like it about as much as I like Beethoven.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:13 pm 
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Terez wrote:
You say that as if I've never tried other composers before. I know there are other composers out there; I just don't like them as much as Bach and Chopin. At least I have good taste.
I'm so glad I haven't :P

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:25 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
You say that as if I've never tried other composers before. I know there are other composers out there; I just don't like them as much as Bach and Chopin. At least I have good taste.
I'm so glad I haven't :P

Pssh, at least you recognize that Bach is the best. :wink: You are just more eclectic. I think I have some sort of mental disorder that causes me to be rather non-eclectic. I think if not for Bach and Chopin I would not be much interested in classical music at all, because I find most of it boring. Of course, the same goes for pop music, to an even greater degree.

There are definitely exceptions, things that I like as much as Bach and Chopin...but no one composer's oevure impresses me as much as those two. For example, I like Mussorgsky's Pictures, the Grieg concerto, some Shostakovich P&Fs, etc. But I have to make myself practice these things. Working on Chopin etudes is actually a pleasurable pastime rather than a chore.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:28 pm 
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My teacher asked me to pair them up (based on the type of technique) and learn a few at one go. So basically I was learning op.10 no.2,5&9, op.25 no.5,10(lento section)&11.

I've stopped chopin temporarily (now till earliest Dec) though to work on Czerny op.299 which my teachers before never enforced but I really don't mind it so much because my technique has started to really improve and I have my other pieces to enjoy.

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Carrying on to work on Schubert Impromptus op.9 nos.1,3&4 after competition. Going to learn no.2 to complete the set. Carrying on with Czerny op.299 from Bk 2 & working on a couple of Bach P+F's


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:04 pm 
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amelialw wrote:
My teacher asked me to pair them up (based on the type of technique) and learn a few at one go. So basically I was learning op.10 no.2,5&9, op.25 no.5,10(lento section)&11.

Interesting. If I was going to make a group based on technique similarity, I'd do 10/2, 10/4, 25/6 and 25/11, or maybe 10/1, 25/11, and 25/12.

Quote:
I've stopped chopin temporarily (now till earliest Dec) though to work on Czerny op.299 which my teachers before never enforced but I really don't mind it so much because my technique has started to really improve and I have my other pieces to enjoy.

Agggh, Czerny again! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Terez wrote:
amelialw wrote:
My teacher asked me to pair them up (based on the type of technique) and learn a few at one go. So basically I was learning op.10 no.2,5&9, op.25 no.5,10(lento section)&11.

Interesting. If I was going to make a group based on technique similarity, I'd do 10/2, 10/4, 25/6 and 25/11, or maybe 10/1, 25/11, and 25/12.

Quote:
I've stopped chopin temporarily (now till earliest Dec) though to work on Czerny op.299 which my teachers before never enforced but I really don't mind it so much because my technique has started to really improve and I have my other pieces to enjoy.

Agggh, Czerny again! :lol:


it isn't funny! especially at my level...sigh :( but I've never worked through Czerny so yeah...

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Carrying on to work on Schubert Impromptus op.9 nos.1,3&4 after competition. Going to learn no.2 to complete the set. Carrying on with Czerny op.299 from Bk 2 & working on a couple of Bach P+F's


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:50 pm 
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For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:32 am 
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musical-md wrote:
For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

I'd rather prepare myself with Chopin. And Bach. (Which Chopin began to recommend more exclusively in his later years.) Or, in other words, knock off some difficult Chopin pieces and then we will talk. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:56 am 
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Terez wrote:
musical-md wrote:
For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

I'd rather prepare myself with Chopin. And Bach. (Which Chopin began to recommend more exclusively in his later years.) Or, in other words, knock off some difficult Chopin pieces and then we will talk. :lol:

I'm curious. What would you use to prepare someone to begin Chopin etudes? Asked another way, whose etudes do you think come prior to Chopin in development?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:01 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Terez wrote:
musical-md wrote:
For someone properly prepared by Czerny, Cramer and Clementi (Gradus ad Parnasus), the step to Chopin is very smooth. :wink:

I'd rather prepare myself with Chopin. And Bach. (Which Chopin began to recommend more exclusively in his later years.) Or, in other words, knock off some difficult Chopin pieces and then we will talk. :lol:

I'm curious. What would you use to prepare someone to begin Chopin etudes? Asked another way, whose etudes do you think come prior to Chopin in development?

I wouldn't use any of it. Chopin recommended Cramer and Clementi, but they don't interest me. Fortunately, he also recommended Bach, and it's easy to see why. The finger gymnastics in Bach's fugues are quite similar to that of Chopin's etudes. Aside from that, I don't know that anything could really prepare a person for Chopin's etudes, aside from general skill. But what do I know? I can't play any of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:29 am 
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Terez wrote:
I don't know that anything could really prepare a person for Chopin's etudes
Terez,
Here is what Hans von Bulow wrote in May of 1868 from Munich:
(In abbreviated fashion)

I. a. Aloys Schmitt: Op.16
__b. Stephen Heller: Op.45 [Really better to start with Op.47]
II. a. J.B. Cramer: Studies
__b. St. Heller: Op.46 and 47 [Really better to end with Op.45]
__c. C. Czerny: Daily Studies [Boo!] and School of Legato and Staccato [Yeh!]
III. a. Clementi: Gradus ad Parnassum (as selected by Tausig)
___b. Moscheles: Op.70
___also begin T. Kullak's School of Octaves
IV. a. Henselt: Selected studies from Op. 2 and 5
___b. Haberbier: Etudes-Poesies
___c. Moscheles: Op.95 Characterisic Studies
V. Chopin: Op.10 and 25 and selected few Preludes Op.28
VI. Liszt: Six Paganini Etudes, three Concert Etudes, 12 Transcendental Etudes
VII. a. Rubinstein: Selected Etudes and Preludes
____b. V.C. Alkan: selections from 12 Grand Etudes

I promise you that any one following this path will be thouroughly prepared and ready for Chopin's Etudes.

Edit: [Brackets are mine]

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:27 am 
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musical-md wrote:
I promise you that any one following this path will be thouroughly prepared and ready for Chopin's Etudes.

Maybe...but I would also be thoroughly bored. And I'm betting that Chopin etudes could just as easily prepare a pianist for everything listed. (And it's odd that the Chopin etudes are on the list.)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:35 am 
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Eddy,

I completely agree with you on this. It seems many pianists today are tackling the Chopin etudes long before they are ready. The issue, of course, is not necessarily even having the basic fingers to get through them but also getting the music out of them, which takes a certain technical freedom, one that's developed by first practicing the easier patterns in Cramer, Clementi, and Czerny. Czerny in particular seems good for learning to practice dynamics into one's playing in the early stages. It was cerrtainly part of my daily bread. I can never understand why people scoff at Czerny. It's such good fun in addition to its pedagogical value.

And the Moscheles are wonderful pieces (I think Moscheles is a very underrated composer), frequently used by Chopin as preparation for this own etudes, which he only let his very best students touch. The figuration for Op. 10, No. 2, I believe was based on one of the Op. 70. Having learned a few of the Moscheles in the past (like Terpsichore from the Grand Studies and the double thirds), I'm actually thinking about learning the rest of opus 70 before turning back to the Chopin etudes (and after I finish the preludes of course -- almost there :D )

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:53 am 
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Interesting that Bulow's list has Chopin before Liszt. Personally I would rate the Liszt as significantly easier than some of the Chopin etudes (although they're certainly flashier, and sound more impressive to a general audience).

I hated Czerny as a teenager, but "rediscovered" him some years later. The second time round I found hidden depths, and indeed much beauty. (Probably I didn't appreciate him the first time round because my teacher told me it was going to be boring! I had a negative impression even before I opened the book.) I think the musical value of these studies is greatly underestimated: some of them are very nice exercises in musical form, harmony, phrasing and shaping. And they form a valuable bridge between the (almost) pure finger technique required for baroque and classical playing and the freer approach of the romantics. Not that I'd use them as concert pieces; but I still think they're worth spending some time on.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:05 am 
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Quote:
Interesting that Bulow's list has Chopin before Liszt. Personally I would rate the Liszt as significantly easier than some of the Chopin etudes (although they're certainly flashier, and sound more impressive to a general audience).


Me too, with the possible exception of Feux-Follets :P

Quote:
I think the musical value of these studies is greatly underestimated: some of them are very nice exercises in musical form, harmony, phrasing and shaping.


Absolutely. It's a great way to practice dynamics and phrasing in easier patterns so that they become natural before the often physically uncomfortable patterns of the Chopin.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:19 pm 
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jlr43 wrote:
It seems many pianists today are tackling the Chopin etudes long before they are ready.

I have been playing them since I was a kid, ready be damned. I don't see the point in playing things you hate in order to prepare yourself for things you love.

My exposure to Czerny was, like my exposure to most things, rather unbiased, since I didn't really take lessons until I was 16 - I just played what my mom had around the house. (She's not a teacher, even for her kids.) I took lessons from age 7-8 from primer books, at which point I learned to read music, but even before then I played things by ear. Mom had Czerny books, and I picked through them mostly because my mom had done a family tree type thing in needlepoint, showing the lines of study for her teacher (the one I studied with from age 16-18). She had three lines back to Beethoven, two of which were through Czerny. Anyway, none of Czerny's music ever interested me. I like Clementi better.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:35 pm 
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hanysz wrote:
Interesting that Bulow's list has Chopin before Liszt. Personally I would rate the Liszt as significantly easier than some of the Chopin etudes (although they're certainly flashier, and sound more impressive to a general audience).

Well, he did rather simplify them didn't he. The 1837 version is far more fiendish. Maybe they're 'easier' on the musical level as they do not quite have the depth of Chopin's etudes.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:09 pm 
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I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher! Speaking of Liszt versus Chopin, how do we file the Busoni version of the Liszt Paganini Etudes? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:23 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Speaking of Liszt versus Chopin, how do we file the Busoni version of the Liszt Paganini Etudes? :lol:

We'll worry about that once you have recorded them :P

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:35 pm 
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Eddy wrote:
Quote:
I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher!
Why? I could, even though we share similar teacher pedigrees (<teacher> - Heinrich Gebhardt - Theodor Leschetizky - Czerny - Beethoven). You may have an extra "great" in there. :P I disagree by pushing any Czerny upon students. They're rather archaic training exercises. It has chased many students away from music. Nobody plays Czerny studies in concert. For a contemporary approach to technique, I would think that Hanon or Philippe exercises are more efficient, evolved, and might complement as prerequisites to learning Chopin Etudes. I still advocate learning the majority of Chopin Preludes in preparation for the Etudes from a musical and technical standpoint. The Preludes can stand by themselves in concert - they're mini-etudes, and musically mature.

My 16 yr old cousin is shrouded with Czerny, and hasn't even done a single Chopin Prelude after the Canadian RCM 10 Exam. 10 years without a single Chopin Prelude is ludicrous! I advised her to cut back on Czerny, and start learning more Beethoven Sonatas, Chopin Preludes, a concerto, and enter a competition before HS graduation. She is now excited to learn new and exciting repertoire and will hopefully pursue music!

Re:
Quote:
Liszt-Paganini Etudes.
Eddy, good luck with yours. The past few weeks, I am taking care of unfinished business - I am challenging myself to finish a Liszt-Paganini Etude that I started, but never finished when my teacher was alive. Maybe it's a better appreciation for the kinesthesiology of technique over time? It's ironic that I am more efficient with respect to technique, time, and energy, than I was as a teen. These days, a limited practice schedule is against me ~ 1hr a week... This is a big challenge to see if I can accomplish something that I couldn't do as a 19 yr old?... Can 40 yr old technical efficiency can outweigh 20 yr old inexperience?... :wink:

George

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:29 am 
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Terez wrote:
I wouldn't use any of it [Czerny etc.]...But what do I know? I can't play any of them [Chopin studies].

Terez wrote:
I have been playing them [Chopin studies] since I was a kid, ready be damned.

Sorry, I'm picking up mixed signals here. You give the impression that you've been playing these pieces badly for many years, because you've never acquired the technical foundation you need? If you spent a couple of months seeing what you can find in Czerny's opus 740, and then go back to Chopin, you might surprise yourself.
Terez wrote:
I don't see the point in playing things you hate in order to prepare yourself for things you love.

Now this I do agree with. If you honestly hate Czerny, then you shouldn't torment yourself. It's possible to achieve much the same technical benefits from a carefully directed study of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and others. I'm not saying everyone has to follow the same path. But if you can find at least some small measure of affection for Czerny's work, it will turn out to be useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:38 am 
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hanysz wrote:
Terez wrote:
I wouldn't use any of it [Czerny etc.]...But what do I know? I can't play any of them [Chopin studies].

Terez wrote:
I have been playing them [Chopin studies] since I was a kid, ready be damned.

Sorry, I'm picking up mixed signals here. You give the impression that you've been playing these pieces badly for many years, because you've never acquired the technical foundation you need?

1) I have no natural facility for piano.
2) Again, I haven't had much in the way of lessons. I've had to figure out the technical puzzles myself.

Quote:
If you spent a couple of months seeing what you can find in Czerny's opus 740, and then go back to Chopin, you might surprise yourself.

I doubt it.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:13 am 
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I'm a professional (practicing my whole life :) ) and my first Chopin's study was op. 25, n. 2. I think that is actually a good choice to begin with. It will give you some speed of the right hand and a more balanced left hand. I find the op. 10/3 more challenging, for example. And I'm not talking about that stormy part in the middle! It's hard to make a great melody and a non-disturbing accompaniment in the right hand. Of course, if you only want to play notes, then this etude is not so hard. But if you want to make progress and one day be able to play all of them, then I would still recommend you to start with op. 25/2. Or maybe learn both! "Not so hard" are also op. 25/1 or op. 10/12. My experience with Chopin's studies is that practicing one study for a long period of time won't make it perfect. You have to repeat to study each study more times in several years and every time you repeat it, you're on a higher level! In order not to ruin your hands with excessive but not rational practicing, you should have a good teacher, who will show you what are the most suitable hand-moves for each one of them and how to activate your fingers. And then comes a day, when you can play smoothly and with no pain the op. 10 n. 2! :roll:

Here is a video of me, playing the op. 10, n. 12 (Revolutionary) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYEyK0oMLk , if you want to know more about the person, who is giving you advice! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:18 am 
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Quote:
I have been playing them since I was a kid, ready be damned. I don't see the point in playing things you hate in order to prepare yourself for things you love.


Hmm...you must have been the type of kid who ate chocolate cake before finishing your broccoli :P

Quote:
I like Clementi better.


That's good. The Clementi are wonderful technical work as well and, I would agree, better music than Czerny.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:37 am 
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jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
I have been playing them since I was a kid, ready be damned. I don't see the point in playing things you hate in order to prepare yourself for things you love.


Hmm...you must have been the type of kid who ate chocolate cake before finishing your broccoli :P

I love broccoli. And I'm not overly fond of chocolate. :wink:

Quote:
Quote:
I like Clementi better.

That's good. The Clementi are wonderful technical work as well and, I would agree, better music than Czerny.

I still don't play Clementi. I have to really love something in order to make myself practice it, and Clementi doesn't quite make the cut.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:47 am 
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urska_babic wrote:
I'm a professional (practicing my whole life :) ) and my first Chopin's study was op. 25, n. 2. I think that is actually a good choice to begin with. It will give you some speed of the right hand and a more balanced left hand. I find the op. 10/3 more challenging, for example.

I just discovered last night that I've been playing 10/3 wrong my whole life. Legato fingering makes a big difference.

Quote:
And I'm not talking about that stormy part in the middle! It's hard to make a great melody and a non-disturbing accompaniment in the right hand. Of course, if you only want to play notes, then this etude is not so hard.

The expressive aspect of music has always been easy for me. This is why people have always made the mistake of thinking I was a talented pianist (my current teacher included). I'm stupid when it comes to technique.

Quote:
But if you want to make progress and one day be able to play all of them, then I would still recommend you to start with op. 25/2. Or maybe learn both! "Not so hard" are also op. 25/1 or op. 10/12.

10/12 has some LH bits that make the RH of 10/1 seem easy. 25/1 is much more difficult IMO, but most people play it horribly.

Quote:
My experience with Chopin's studies is that practicing one study for a long period of time won't make it perfect. You have to repeat to study each study more times in several years and every time you repeat it, you're on a higher level!

This!

Quote:
In order not to ruin your hands with excessive but not rational practicing, you should have a good teacher, who will show you what are the most suitable hand-moves for each one of them and how to activate your fingers. And then comes a day, when you can play smoothly and with no pain the op. 10 n. 2! :roll:

I started working on 10/2 a few months ago, though I didn't spend much time on it because I had a recital to prepare. It's coming along. As for pain...I figured out with 25/12 that pain is a sign of bad technique. I think I conquered that problem with 25/11...I don't have pain any more from practicing. 25/11 has a lot to offer concerning those 'suitable hand-moves'.

Quote:
Here is a video of me, playing the op. 10, n. 12 (Revolutionary) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYEyK0oMLk , if you want to know more about the person, who is giving you advice! :D

Fantastic technique. My only complaint is that it seems a little too straight (but everyone plays it that way, alas), and that the bass is weak (I think that's the piano). I started working on this one in earnest last week.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:21 am 
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Terez, now I feel like you've just been yanking our collective chains. :evil: How could you even think that you could play Chopin Etudes if you have "no natural facility for the piano" and are essentially self-taught? The Chopin etudes (some of the pinncale of piano literature) are then way over your head (and hands) and you would really do well to step way back and train, the way everybody else has that can perform the Chopin etudes in an artistic and successful manner.

For your information, IMO the Czerny Etudes are meant only to be highly concentrated studies on technical matters (as a continuation of Kohler), but many of his studies are very musical - and very demanding technically - especially from the School of Legato and Staccato, and The Art of Finger Dexterity. Since you're having trouble with Chopin, I'm sure you would have trouble with these too. As opposed to the "more mechanical" etudes of Czerny which are extended by Cramer and Clementi, the "more artisitic" may begin with Streabbog and Burgmuller, and continue with Heller and the others listed in my earlier post, and these two lines blend together in works of Moskowski, Moscheles, etc. All of these are NOT exercises. At the same time one should be doing exercises like Schmitt (develops independence of the fingers in closed hand position), Phillip fully-diminshed 7th exercises (the superlative training for developing independence of the fingers with the hand in open position), as well as all scales and arpeggios in every concievable combination of difficulty (always and forever), Kullak studies and etudes for octaves, Berens exercises and etudes for the LH, Moskowski's School of Double-Notes. To all this is added repertoire, which always includes Bach. Nothing prepares for Bach; one starts with the easier didactic works and progresses through them (Notebook and other Preludes, Inventions, Sinfonias, 1 French Suite, WTC and Partitas, ... well until you die or can play the Goldberg Variations from memory. *[Was it you that posted earlier that you spent (or would dedicate) five years to practicing the Rachmaninoff Rhapsody? That is insane. If it was you, you are in denial. If you can't learn to play it in one year, forget it, it's beyond you and no matter how much you try, you will not be able because you lack foundation and breadth.] Piano literature is a library as big as an ocean, but to play great masterworks, A. you have to have natural facility for the piano, B. you must have opportunity to train well and thouroghly, C. you must take advantage of that oportunity, D. you must work VERY HARD for MANY years. There are no cutting corners (Arthur Rubinstein cut corners in his early technical training, and later retreated from concertizing for a year to work on what he had skipped).

You seem to repeatedly scorn the notion of graded training, yet every great pianist goes through it. I will bet you that Ms. Babic can list a veritable catalogue of technical work she did prior to advancing to the Chopin Etudes. You should identify what you can play as well as any artist can play, and that should be your baseline to begin (?) training. (But these things must be done when in our youth :( )

(Well, I think I've had a catharsis.)

Edit: * Oops, this wasn't you. Please disregard the bracketed section.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:36 am 
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Terez wrote:
The expressive aspect of music has always been easy for me. This is why people have always made the mistake of thinking I was a talented pianist (my current teacher included). I'm stupid when it comes to technique.

Then why on earth is all you want to play the hardest of etudes ? And then endlessly moan that you can't do it ? I really don't dig this, you must be one terribly frustrated person (I am reminded of PJF....) There is so much great and wonderful music that does not require hardboiled technical mastery. Even when you confine yourself to Chopin, there is so much to wallow in.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:54 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Terez, now I feel like you've just been yanking our collective chains. :evil: How could you even think that you could play Chopin Etudes if you have "no natural facility for the piano" and are essentially self-taught?

Because I'm delusional. Everyone who knows me knows that much about me. :lol:

Quote:
The Chopin etudes (some of the pinncale of piano literature) are then way over your head (and hands)

Are they? Just because I've had relatively little training? I realize I can't play any of them properly yet, but I enjoy working on them, and I'm learning a lot from them...so why not? I don't have zero training - I've spent the last four years working on a piano performance degree - but it's not my teacher's fault that I have so many bad habits from my undisciplined childhood. She's helped me correct quite a few of them, as have Bach and Chopin. I conquer new ones every day. Fortunately my teacher never made me play Czerny, or Clementi (she actually forbade that), or Hanon (she and I both scoff at another student of hers who plays his Hanon every day), or anything else except for one non-Bach/Chopin composer each semester. If she had made me play any of that, I'd have probably quit.

Quote:
and you would really do well to step way back and train, the way everybody else has that can perform the Chopin etudes in an artistic and successful manner.

That's what Bach breaks are for. :wink:

Quote:
If you can't learn to play it in one year, forget it, it's beyond you and no matter how much you try, you will not be able because you lack foundation and breadth.

This, I disagree with. All that matters to me is A. that I enjoy what I work on, B. that I learn something that is applicable to other music, and C. that I make progress on the piece(s) I'm working on. I would eventually like to play some of them well, and while I'm always going past my deadlines, I don't think that Chopin etudes are 'beyond me'.

Quote:
You seem to repeatedly scorn the notion of graded training, yet every great pianist goes through it.

I scorn it because 1. it's boring, and 2. I don't know that it's necessarily a good thing, judging from the average trained pianist. And 3. I simply don't have the discipline to practice music or exercises that I find boring. I have come to learn that this will never change.

(Edited because I thought you were Chris the whole time I was responding to you.)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:58 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
The expressive aspect of music has always been easy for me. This is why people have always made the mistake of thinking I was a talented pianist (my current teacher included). I'm stupid when it comes to technique.

Then why on earth is all you want to play the hardest of etudes ? And then endlessly moan that you can't do it ? I really don't dig this, you must be one terribly frustrated person (I am reminded of PJF....) There is so much great and wonderful music that does not require hardboiled technical mastery. Even when you confine yourself to Chopin, there is so much to wallow in.

I have played a lot of other Chopin. I'm digging the etudes right now. I'm not 'moaning' about not being able to do it; I enjoy the challenge. What have I said that you think is 'moaning'? And you yourself said I could post my recording of 25/11 in the audition room and not be ashamed of it, and while I disagree (and maybe you do too - people don't always say what they mean), then doesn't that answer your question as to why I do it? 25/1, 11, and 12 need more work, and they are getting it...10/12 is really helping with the LH of 25/12, and 10/1 is helping with the RH, so that one is getting much more solid. I've gone back to slow practice on 25/11 and have made a lot of progress. 10/4 has been interesting but it hasn't gotten to the point that I'm learning much from it yet. 10/2 has always been a help for 25/11, and 25/6 is helpful for both (those three work together nicely). 10/3 I'm doing because I need to relearn the fingering; it's been a year or more since I touched that one, but it's ready to go up another notch. That was the first etude I tried as a child, and I segued around the middle part. :wink: I started trying to learn the middle section as a teenager, and that's also when I began working on 25/1 and 25/12. I've had two or three goes at 25/12 since, and this is my second go at 25/1.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:36 pm 
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88man wrote:
Eddy wrote:
Quote:
I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher!
Why? I could, even though we share similar teacher pedigrees (<teacher> - Heinrich Gebhardt - Theodor Leschetizky - Czerny - Beethoven). You may have an extra "great" in there. :P

I was always secretly jealous of people boasting an impressive teacher pedigree. At last it occurred to me to dig up mine, and I'm happy to find that through my lessons with Evelina Vorontsova, it goes back to Schumann and Mendelssohn :D The sequence being Evelina Vorontsova -
Mikhail Voskressensky - Lev Oborin - Yelena Gnessin - Ferrucio Busoni - Carl Reinecke - Schumann & Mendelssohn.
It seems likely (but I'm not sure) that Yelena Gnessin is a descendant of the 3 sisters who founded the famous Gnessin Academy.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:02 pm 
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techneut wrote:
88man wrote:
Eddy wrote:
Quote:
I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher!
Why? I could, even though we share similar teacher pedigrees (<teacher> - Heinrich Gebhardt - Theodor Leschetizky - Czerny - Beethoven). You may have an extra "great" in there. :P

I was always secretly jealous of people boasting an impressive teacher pedigree. At last it occurred to me to dig up mine, and I'm happy to find that through my lessons with Evelina Vorontsova, it goes back to Schumann and Mendelssohn :D The sequence being Evelina Vorontsova -
Mikhail Voskressensky - Lev Oborin - Yelena Gnessin - Ferrucio Busoni - Carl Reinecke - Schumann & Mendelssohn.
It seems likely (but I'm not sure) that Yelena Gnessin is a descendant of the 3 sisters who founded the famous Gnessin Academy.


Wow, that's impressive! How do you find teacher lineage? Never mind, I'm sure you just have to read bios. I'm going to look for mine too.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:13 am 
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88man wrote:
Eddy wrote:
Quote:
I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher!
Why? I could, even though we share similar teacher pedigrees (<teacher> - Heinrich Gebhardt - Theodor Leschetizky - Czerny - Beethoven). You may have an extra "great" in there. :P I disagree by pushing any Czerny upon students. They're rather archaic training exercises. It has chased many students away from music. Nobody plays Czerny studies in concert. For a contemporary approach to technique, I would think that Hanon or Philippe exercises are more efficient, evolved, and might complement as prerequisites to learning Chopin Etudes. I still advocate learning the majority of Chopin Preludes in preparation for the Etudes from a musical and technical standpoint. The Preludes can stand by themselves in concert - they're mini-etudes, and musically mature.

My 16 yr old cousin is shrouded with Czerny, and hasn't even done a single Chopin Prelude after the Canadian RCM 10 Exam. 10 years without a single Chopin Prelude is ludicrous! I advised her to cut back on Czerny, and start learning more Beethoven Sonatas, Chopin Preludes, a concerto, and enter a competition before HS graduation. She is now excited to learn new and exciting repertoire and will hopefully pursue music!

Re:
Quote:
Liszt-Paganini Etudes.
Eddy, good luck with yours. The past few weeks, I am taking care of unfinished business - I am challenging myself to finish a Liszt-Paganini Etude that I started, but never finished when my teacher was alive. Maybe it's a better appreciation for the kinesthesiology of technique over time? It's ironic that I am more efficient with respect to technique, time, and energy, than I was as a teen. These days, a limited practice schedule is against me ~ 1hr a week... This is a big challenge to see if I can accomplish something that I couldn't do as a 19 yr old?... Can 40 yr old technical efficiency can outweigh 20 yr old inexperience?... :wink:

George

Hi George. First, I'm not now working on any Liszt, but have some plans for some a ways down the road. Regarding our teachers, you must be older than me :wink:, because it takes me 5 steps to get to Czerny and 2 of my 3 teachers are already passed and the last has had a stroke and is about 70 (I'm 53). And to add yet again to the discussion of Czerny, I would like to state that anyone familiar with the Schumann Tocatta should appreciate immediately the debt Schumann owes to Czerny's influence (although I am not able at this moment to prove it) for Czerny's Toccata (Op. 92) in also in C major and features double notes! Not many people have ever even heard this piece. Check it on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_0u9dLCRRY. The kinship is unquestionable. Another interesting little work is his Op.740, No 33. in A-flat, a study in octaves for the RH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwCQpxkvWvc&playnext=1&list=PLE3B55624475BEECD
Regarding the Chopin Preludes, I think they are overrated. They are a very mixed bag, either super easy or super difficult. They don't serve IMO very well in a didactic progression, and don't serve as any significant preparatiion for his Etudes, which must be approached by much wider terrain.
88man wrote:
I am challenging myself to finish a Liszt-Paganini Etude that I started, but never finished when my teacher was alive.

Please don't say it's Mazeppa or Feux follets :shock:

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


Last edited by musical-md on Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:37 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Another interesting little work is his Op.740, No 33. in A-flat, a study in octaves for the RH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwCQpxkvWvc&playnext=1&list=PLE3B55624475BEECD

Thanks, this was delightful. I enjoyed his cheeky little accelarando leading towards the end :-)
musical-md wrote:
Please don't say it's Mazeppa or Feux follets :shock:

I think we're safe: those two aren't in the Paganini set. But maybe we can hope to see a new recording of La Campanella being posted soon?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:10 am 
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hanysz wrote:
musical-md wrote:
Another interesting little work is his Op.740, No 33. in A-flat, a study in octaves for the RH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwCQpxkvWvc&playnext=1&list=PLE3B55624475BEECD

Thanks, this was delightful. I enjoyed his cheeky little accelarando leading towards the end :-)
musical-md wrote:
Please don't say it's Mazeppa or Feux follets :shock:

I think we're safe: those two aren't in the Paganini set. But maybe we can hope to see a new recording of La Campanella being posted soon?

Oops! :oops:

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:32 am 
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Hello Eddy, I am not older, I am 42. I now see that you (and Chris) have an extra teacher lineages. My teacher passed away 13 yrs ago. To give an idea of her age, at NEC, she was classmates with Leonard Bernstein, Alan Hovaness, and Louise Vosgerchian (later at Harvard - I knew her as a juror from a piano competition). They are all deceased. My teacher was never boastful and only after 5 yrs of lessons did she mention that she studied with Heinrich Gebhardt at New England Conservatory. It all started when I was learning the Brahms Two Rhapsodies, Op. 79, and Heinrich Gebhardt was the editor in the Schirmer edition. She told me about the lineage once, and never brought it up again.
No Monica, it's not in my bio (sounds pretentious as an amateur). I only brought it up because Eddy brought back fond memories of my teacher... A day hardly goes by when I am not reminded of her - either a familiar piece on the radio, echoes of life's anecdotes, teachings of history, art, musicology, etc. She's the best teacher I've ever had in any discipline. She was a like a second mother during my teenage years...

Thanks Eddy, for the link to the Czerny works. In terms of technical difficulty, the 2 examples transcend the category of "prerequisite," but could even stand as "parallel" to Chopin Etudes in difficulty. Musically, it might be a different story. I will not argue Czerny's established school of technique, only to add that there are many roads that lead to Rome. The evolution of piano technique have included many pianists, and fortunately technique continued to evolve even after Chopin. Perhaps Chopin is a single point along the chronological musical timeline, and so is Czerny. The Czerny school is valid, along with other aforementioned schools of technique on the thread which followed much later. Most pianist ideologies seem complete in addressing the technical elements in piano literature (octaves, trills, 3rds, 6ths, scales, arpeggios, repeated notes, finger substitution, stretches, etc.). Which school of technique for learning the Chopin Etudes - Czerny, Hanon, Philippe, etc.?... Probably a matter of taste or the teacher at hand (no pun intended). :D

No Eddy, it's not Mazeppa or Feux Follets. Our venerable Aussie nailed it! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:54 am 
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pianolady wrote:
Wow, that's impressive! How do you find teacher lineage? Never mind, I'm sure you just have to read bios. I'm going to look for mine too.
I knew it went back to Lev Oborin, and Wikipedia provided the rest. Actually the line through my second teacher is intriguing too, and less convoluted: Folke Nauta - Jan Wijn - Alicia de Larrocha - Frank Marshall - Enrique Granados. Time to play more Spanish music again...

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:12 pm 
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techneut wrote:
pianolady wrote:
Wow, that's impressive! How do you find teacher lineage? Never mind, I'm sure you just have to read bios. I'm going to look for mine too.
I knew it went back to Lev Oborin, and Wikipedia provided the rest. Actually the line through my second teacher is intriguing too, and less convoluted: Folke Nauta - Jan Wijn - Alicia de Larrocha - Frank Marshall - Enrique Granados. Time to play more Spanish music again...

OMG....really??? Ahhhhh!!!
(i want that lineage ¡!)

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:09 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
OMG....really??? Ahhhhh!!!
(i want that lineage ¡!)

There must be someone in USA who studied with Larrocha. I never realized that Jan Wijn (the doyen of Dutch piano pedagogues) studied with her.
But this is getting terribly OT now...

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:52 pm 
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88man wrote:
No Monica, it's not in my bio (sounds pretentious as an amateur). I only brought it up because Eddy brought back fond memories of my teacher...


I meant reading the bios of our teachers. I would never list that in my own bio either. But guess what? I have a similar line of teachers as you: Alexander Djordjevic :arrow: Vitali Margulis :arrow: Scriabin :arrow: Vasily Safonov :arrow: Leschetisky :arrow: Czerny :arrow: Beethoven (and Clementi).

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 Post subject: Re: Chopin etudes op 10/25
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:08 pm 
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techneut wrote:
But this is getting terribly OT now...

Has been for a while. I found the sketch of the tree my mom made for our teacher, and it's a little more complicated than I'd remembered (and all three lines were through Czerny - only two through Leschetizky).

Margaret Shaw-->Edwin Hughes-->Joseffy-->Liszt-->Czerny-->Beethoven-->Haydn etc.
''..........................''......................-->Leschetizky-->Czerny, etc.
''.....................-->Monetta Stribling Wells-->Ossip Gabrilowitsch-->Leschetizky, etc.

I don't know the tree for my other teachers, but I'm sure they have pedigree too. :roll: I do know that my current teacher studied with Abbey Simon; there's a rich pedigree there which I am too lazy to research. Another former teacher was a Juilliard grad.

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