I suppose I can see why. It's also very, very, VERY satisfying to play, at well below performance tempo. Very rewarding work, and I have to fight myself to keep from practicing 5 or 6 hours every day on it. Chopin said no more than 3! But I would say that 10/4 is the most 'devlish'. There are a few I think are more difficult than 25/11 obviously, but I think that some might agree that 10/4 is one of them. 25/11 has a sense of gravity, perfect weights and balances, that 10/4 does not have IMO. That is what makes it more difficult for me.


Not really. I have actually worked on 25/6 and I think it's not so difficult as many others, even though I didn't quite get it to performance tempo. I am not very good. But Alfie and I have been arguing about 10/2 in email, and since I have never really worked hard on this one, I will have to concede that I probably have no idea what I am talking about.


I am not so sure any more that endurance is exactly the right word for what these two require. I think that the arm/wrist/finger technique must be just exactly so, and if it's not, then the tension will cause damage whether or not your 'endurance' is good. I am still thinking of peppering my senior recital with several from op. 25; probably 1, 6, 11, and 12, but I don't think I will play them as a group. Probably open the program with 25/1, then play maybe some Debussy and a Beethoven sonata, and end the first half with 25/11. Then open the second half with 25/6, then play the Bach c minor partita, then end with 25/12. If I can do it.


I have a piano to practice on in my teacher's office - a Kawai that's been reworked a lot - that is wonderfully fluid and delicate. Can't get a sound out of it, but I imagine it's similar to the sort of piano that Chopin loved. I prefer playing on the Steinway in the recital hall of course - I love that sound - but I try not to treat it as a practice piano too often. It makes me feel guilty. There is another piano in my teacher's office - a Howard, also heavily reworked - that has stiff action, and my teacher uses it to practice because it makes performance easier, but I can't do it. Plus, she has hand injuries, and she concedes that it's probably because she's always favored practice pianos with stiff action.


I don't have any recording equipment. Maybe one day I can afford some, and then I will record the ones I have worked on. I might play 25/11 for recital class, and if I do, there will be a recording, but the sound will probably not be all that great, and since it's live (in front of a few hundred music students) there is bound to be an error or three that I just can't live with, lol. But I will probably post it in the general forum for the curious, as usual.

Oh, I agree that 25/1 is much more difficult than 25/9 (even though a friend of mine who is playing all of Op. 25 thinks that even 25/9 is difficult because the pattern is tiring, and the stretching). I would just disagree that 10/6 is more difficult than 25/9; I don't see how anyone could argue that any of the etudes is less difficult in terms of technique than 10/6. Yes, it requires some clever fingering (which is given for you!), and musical sensitivity, but they all do. Yes, it has some weird accidentals, but so do many of the others, and also, reading accidentals is nothing compared to what is required in the other 23 etudes in terms of technique.

Yes Terez, 10/4 and 25/11 are both devilish to play at tempo. You know you're in for a treat when the tempo is marked 'Presto con fuoco!' Practicing 5 to 6 hours a day is remarkable dedication. I've often wondered how long one chooses or needs to practice. Perhaps it may depend on your aims in music: Performance or Teaching?... When growing up, it seemed I had all the time to practice, but I didn't have a great piano. The biggest tease of my life is having a gorgeous Steinway B, but not having time to practice 1 hour a week... Hopefully at 40, I can work a 4-day schedule and play more music?!... I am optimistic!

Terez wrote: You're right, I used the word 'endurance' loosely to describe the cumulative effects of repetition on tension when playing Etudes. As far as finger strength exercises go, one can easily do finger push ups by leaning against a wall to start. My thought is that once you develop finger strength only up to a point, you can decrease the overall tension slightly, and hence increase 'endurance.' Gearing up for an Etude marathon is all about tension and release (relaxation) cycles, arm/wrist height, back position, chair height, gravity, etc. This reminds me of a discussion I had about tendon physiology and injury (9th thread down): viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4164&start=0

Terez wrote:That's a quite a bit of hot pepper on your plate!... Great, when will the tickets go on sale?... Most of the Etudes you mentioned are tension builders. Perhaps it may look better to play one less Etude in order to keep the Etudes as a group? However, the order you mentioned can certainly work too. In any case, good luck in your challenging program!

George

Super-bump. I just figured I'd see if anyone else felt like talking about Chopin etudes. I just started working on 10/1 yesterday, which I've never tried to play before. I have always been disparaging of this etude in comparison to others, because I always found it relatively uninteresting musically, but after two days I'm starting to see why people like working on it so much.

Also working on these (some of them I have been playing for a while):

10/2
10/3
10/4
10/6
25/1
25/6
25/7
25/11
25/12

I might also try 10/8, 10/9 ,10/11 and 10/12, and maybe also 25/10. Not sure yet. Since my recital requirements are complete, I don't have to work on anything else right now.

I sense a Complete Set in the making

haha, maybe one day. I thought about it, but for now I'd rather work on the best etudes in both sets rather than one complete set. There's no way I could make myself practice 25/2-5 when I could do 10/1-4 instead, etc. And everyone says 10/5 is really easy but I have never liked it much, and it seems really hard to me. Was also happy to discover that Chopin himself didn't like 10/5 much; when he discovered that Clara Schumann was going to play it at a concert, he said she would have been better off playing nothing at all.

Or, you could try something else than Chopin and Bach for once. You know, broaden your horizons a bit ? There are other composers out there....

Yes, like Granados!

You say that as if I've never tried other composers before. I know there are other composers out there; I just don't like them as much as Bach and Chopin. At least I have good taste.

Monica - I have liked some of the Granados stuff you've posted. But I like it about as much as I like Beethoven.

I'm so glad I haven't

Pssh, at least you recognize that Bach is the best. You are just more eclectic. I think I have some sort of mental disorder that causes me to be rather non-eclectic. I think if not for Bach and Chopin I would not be much interested in classical music at all, because I find most of it boring. Of course, the same goes for pop music, to an even greater degree.

There are definitely exceptions, things that I like as much as Bach and Chopin...but no one composer's oevure impresses me as much as those two. For example, I like Mussorgsky's Pictures, the Grieg concerto, some Shostakovich P&Fs, etc. But I have to make myself practice these things. Working on Chopin etudes is actually a pleasurable pastime rather than a chore.

My teacher asked me to pair them up (based on the type of technique) and learn a few at one go. So basically I was learning op.10 no.2,5&9, op.25 no.5,10(lento section)&11.

I've stopped chopin temporarily (now till earliest Dec) though to work on Czerny op.299 which my teachers before never enforced but I really don't mind it so much because my technique has started to really improve and I have my other pieces to enjoy.

Interesting. If I was going to make a group based on technique similarity, I'd do 10/2, 10/4, 25/6 and 25/11, or maybe 10/1, 25/11, and 25/12.


Agggh, Czerny again!

it isn't funny! especially at my level...sigh but I've never worked through Czerny so yeah...