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 Post subject: Re: pedaling in Chopin etude questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:34 pm 
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Thanks, guys. I didn't consider rolling both chords. That's something to think about.
And Rainer, I tried putting more pinky finger on the top A-flat but I still can't get it to sound very much. Too bad I can't just use a Janko keyboard! Have you seen these?
Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK4REjqGc9w
listen beginning at 4:17 to hear the maker explain how it works. I was certainly interested in the part about being able to reach wide chords!

Anyway, I've just had another idea....is it allowable to rearrange notes in Chopin's chords? What if I take the low G-flat (RH) and move it up an octave? Again, here is another short 17-second sample. Can you tell that I changed the chord in the second version? I don't want to make Chopin mad.... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: pedaling in Chopin etude questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
pianolady wrote:
I tried putting more pinky finger on the top A-flat but I still can't get it to sound very much.
That's a pity. How do you manage in the rest of the piece? There are plenty of Gb-Ab ninths. Are they less of a problem for you when there are no other notes inbetween?
Quote:
Too bad I can't just use a Janko keyboard! Have you seen these?
Yep, there was a guy posting here about it some months back. I think he had emigrated to Santiago de Chile.
Trouble with this is that it has two different and essentially (it seems) unrelated properties which tend to be conflated. One is the layout, the primary purpose of which is to make transposition easy without changing fingering. The other is the increased reach, but this does not seem particularly related to the layout, it's just that they made all the keys smaller, and there's no reason why you couldn't do that while retaining the conventional keyboard layout. Aren't piano-accordion keys slighty narrower than piano keys, for example?
Quote:
Anyway, I've just had another idea....is it allowable to rearrange notes in Chopin's chords? What if I take the low G-flat (RH) and move it up an octave? Again, here is another short 17-second sample. Can you tell that I changed the chord in the second version?
Surprisingly, that sounds reasonably convincing. I can only tell if I really concentrate hard. The effect of the chord containing the "wrong" Gb is much weaker than that of the top Ab coming out stronger. Another thing you might like to try instead is losing the very bottom Ab, and to play the other LH Ab with 5, and the original Gb with your left thumb, or do you think that would sacrifice too much sonority?
Quote:
I don't want to make Chopin mad.... :wink:
Well, it boils down to your deciding which option would be least likely to make him turn in his grave. Since you visited it, you'll probably have some insight there.

Speaking of which, you also mentioned recently that you had visited Poulenc's grave nearby, but that mention, together with your photo, seems to have vanished without trace almost as soon as you posted it, as if you had decided you were unhappy with your re-recording of that novelette. No matter. It's just that I had been meaning to ask you about who that was in there with him. So I had to work it out for myself. It's his niece, sole heiress to his estate, who sadly died only a few months after him.


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 Post subject: Re: pedaling in Chopin etude questions
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:55 pm 
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Posts: 243
Location: Adelaide, Australia
rainer wrote:
The second way would be better because it's what's written.

If you were playing for an exam or audition I'd agree with this: you don't want to do anything unexpected in those circumstances. But there's plenty of evidence that 19th century pianists respected the score a lot less than we do now--even Chopin didn't play his own pieces exactly as written--and in particular, people rolled chords whenever they felt like it. For me, rolling the chords is definitely the lesser evil compared with being unable to balance the notes the way you want.

pianolady wrote:
Anyway, I've just had another idea....is it allowable to rearrange notes in Chopin's chords? What if I take the low G-flat (RH) and move it up an octave? Again, here is another short 17-second sample. Can you tell that I changed the chord in the second version?

I can hear the difference, and I think some of the warmth of the A flat chord is lost. There certainly are situations where you can get away with rearranging or leaving out notes, but usually in passages that are a bit more active rhythmically (I left out quite a few notes when I played the Schubert-Liszt Erlkonig, and noone was any the wiser); for my taste, it doesn't work so well here. It's a good idea though, and I'm sure you'll make use of it another time.

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 Post subject: Re: pedaling in Chopin etude questions
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:50 pm 
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rainer wrote:
pianolady wrote:
I tried putting more pinky finger on the top A-flat but I still can't get it to sound very much.
That's a pity. How do you manage in the rest of the piece? There are plenty of Gb-Ab ninths. Are they less of a problem for you when there are no other notes inbetween?


Yes, that's correct.


rainer wrote:
Yep, there was a guy posting here about it some months back.


Oh yes, I knew I heard about this somewhere before.



rainer wrote:
Well, it boils down to your deciding which option would be least likely to make him turn in his grave. Since you visited it, you'll probably have some insight there.
Speaking of which, you also mentioned recently that you had visited Poulenc's grave nearby, but that mention, together with your photo, seems to have vanished without trace almost as soon as you posted it, as if you had decided you were unhappy with your re-recording of that novelette. No matter. It's just that I had been meaning to ask you about who that was in there with him. So I had to work it out for myself. It's his niece, sole heiress to his estate, who sadly died only a few months after him.


Yes, I took the photo down and another one I had recently posted. I don't like seeing myself and I often have second thoughts and delete things soon after I post them. I am happy with my re-recording, but seemed like no one showed interest and so after 24-hours I deleted the thread. I am an impatient person.

Maybe I'll post a Chopin grave photo when I make my two new Chopin recordings in a couple days. We'll see how brave I feel then.

If you are on Facebook, you can 'friend' me and then you can see ALL my Paris photos (and Venice and Rome too). That goes for anybody here (that is if I recognize your name). I'm not as active on Facebook as I used to be - it goes in waves. But I do enjoy keeping up with my 'interesting' friends and seeing peoples photos.

hanysz wrote:
I can hear the difference, and I think some of the warmth of the A flat chord is lost. There certainly are situations where you can get away with rearranging or leaving out notes, but usually in passages that are a bit more active rhythmically (I left out quite a few notes when I played the Schubert-Liszt Erlkonig, and noone was any the wiser); for my taste, it doesn't work so well here. It's a good idea though, and I'm sure you'll make use of it another time.


Ok, thanks, Alexander. I guess then I'll stick with the way the chord is written. I'll probably have to roll both chords to make everything sound logical.

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"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

my videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/monicapiano
my personal website: http://www.monicaalianello.com


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 Post subject: Re: pedaling in Chopin etude questions
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:11 pm 
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Posts: 30
Quote:
Yep, there was a guy posting here about it some months back. I think he had emigrated to Santiago de Chile.

Yep,... he still didn't die and still lives there; enjoying an ice-cream in hot Chilean summer. :)

I'm still at it... at desperately trying to convert my Tyros 3 zebra piano Kbd into Janko Kbd layout. Musical creativity is part of my inherited burden and so, whether I like or not ...have to put up with it. - My Tyros Kbd conversion will take a while, I stick to my whistling to musical creativity of whistling to music, which sadly was not welcome by some forum members.
To progress my Tyros 3 Kbd conversion, I tried to get plastic printers to fabricate the Kbd keys, but their quotes were about $500 for 61 keys.
So, I had to dream up another solution ...and found one:
I just use 0.3mm thin tin covers, which clip onto the keys to protect them. That offers me a firm surface onto which I then epoxy glue the square Janko keys and is easily reversible, in case I need to sell the Tyros later on.
The advantage of this Janko musical Kbd is that it offers hobby musicians (like me!) to play the Kbd 10x faster and easier; i.e. 1 year of Janko practice equals 10 years of zebra piano Kbd practice!! This advantage is too good to be missed. :)
Most accomplished zebra piano Kbd players hate the Janko Kbd idea, because to them it's "just unfair" for Janko players to enjoy all these benefits! Zebra piano players had to struggle the hard way to get there so, why should Janko players have it any easier?! "Why have it easier ...when it can be made more complicated!" :(
The same with traditional notation. That's why I invented my own WYSIWYG Janko notation, which allows to visually transfer the notes from the sheet music to the keys and to forget about irregular scales practice and music theory. That makes sense, doesn't it? Here are some more details about it:
Attachment:
Capture.JPG

I also converted an old 120-button Farfisa accordion bass (bass section only) to MIDI. It was a hell of work combining, wiring/ soldering up all basses and chords via some 200+ signal diodes. This will enable me to enjoy musical creativity just like a singer or whistler, without bothering about irregular scales and chords with #+b and other Garbo irregularities.
Now all I would need is to find a PC programmer, who could accelerate the music conversion from traditional notation to my Janko notation.
Besides, I converted an old 120-button accordion bass (bass section only) to MIDI, fabricated a special cover for it, decorated it with cloth of my old shirt and sold it in two day for almost $400 on eBay. It was easy to do: I just added 24 switches onto it air flaps, but I didn't like it, for its 120 buttons had to operate the mechanics and that made the buttons hard to press, whereas my Farfisa accordion bass only activates one soft contact per button!!
Here's a great Janko piano Demo:
Attachment:
JankoDEMO.mp4


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 Post subject: Re: pedaling in Chopin etude questions
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am
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jjj wrote:
Yep,... he still didn't die and still lives there; enjoying an ice-cream in hot Chilean summer. :)

Gosh that's been a while ! A bit of a topic bump, this... and quite off-topic too. Unless you want to suggest that this
staccato/pedaling mix would be easier done on a Janko keyboard ?

jjj wrote:
Here's a great Janko piano Demo:
Attachment:
JankoDEMO.mp4

Wow, some scales and chords ! Surely none of this could be achieved on a normal piano :P

Honestly I don't understand this dogged effort to 'improve' an instrument and notation that have evolved over centuries, and which is
played to perfection by countless people all over the world. What is wrong with the default keyboard and notation ? Too difficult ? I think not.

Will any half-decent pianist be wanting to learn this keyboard to improve/facilitate their scales ? Probably not.

What is the target audience for such a keyboard anyway ? The poor sods who can't learn to play a normal piano ? Or the
intellectual zealots who can never leave well enough alone ? There does not seem to be a middle ground.

Will it give possibilities for a new type of fascinating music, like a quarter-tone piano can ? Doesn't seem to be so.

But as a purely academic exercise I guess this has its value. Whatever turns you on ! I'd rather be playing the piano though.

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 Post subject: Re: pedaling in Chopin etude questions
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:46 pm 
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Posts: 30
Saludos cordiales, de Johannes K. Drinda, down-under in St'go de Chile... enjoying an ice-cream in hot summer! In your context your opinion is totally correct. You struggled yourself to success on the traditional piano and thus, earned the right to defend and protect your hard earned dexterity skills. I totally agree! :)
Yet, for me (quasi beginner) and in regard to Janko Kbd layout, it is a totally different matter.
Hence, the bottom line is: why should Kbd learners have to keep on practicing a grossly irregular Kbd layout, if there exist a regular Janko Kbd layout, which allows them to progress their dexterity skills 10x faster? (The same with traditional music notation!)
Thus, the only true, convincing argument is the fact that no accomplished Kbd player is willing to relinquish his/ her hard earned dexterity skills, gained on the traditional piano Kbd layout.
Thus even then, if the traditional piano Kbd layout were to be 10x more irregular and complicated, they still would be unwilling/ unable to relinquish their hard gained skills. That's why the great A. Rubinstein said: "If I were to begin my career anew it would be on this keyboard." What more proof do we need? :roll:
That is, why I rather trust good Arthur for having checked it out and properly assessed the Janko's Kbd advantages and benefits; much better than we ever could...

I somewhere read an article, in which a pianist on a traditional piano and a pianist on the Janko piano played and compared extremely difficult piece of music and the former felt like deceived and called the contest "unfair", because the Janko pianist never crossed his arms and enjoyed far less difficulties.
In the end the traditional pianist mentioned that more than anything else, the art of performing on the piano consists in the challenge of mastering the irregularity of the traditional piano Kbd layout and that's why the Janko piano lacks this challenge. Yet, that mentality seems to have more to do with "sports or dexterity acrobatic" than with music...
The same problem we got with the outdated, traditional music notation. Now, that computer programs are able to simplify conversions of different notations, it's about time to (at least offer gifted hobby musicians) to amend and simplify music notation. Thus far, only Klavarskribo notation dared to venture into this "forbidden realm".

My challenge has always been creating a fast and simple learning method, which enables musically gifted persons to play any musical keyboard. I discovered that the Janko Kbd layout and my innovative WYSIWYG Janko notation offers me just that. Maybe you know of an even better way of meeting my objective? - I would greatly appreciate for your professional advice.


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 Post subject: Re: pedaling in Chopin etude questions
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:02 pm 
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I took the liberty to edit the post to delete the duplicate information.

Your arguments are valid too from a purely theoretical point of view. Although that quote by Rubinstein may well have been a quip... I don't think any pianist starting a career, and in their right mind, would start using a keyboard that nobody else uses. Think of going on tour and expecting a Janko piano in each concert hall ! And all the gigatons of published piano music to be converted to Janko (or even Klavarskribo) notation ! It would most severely curtail any musical career. And have you considered the fact that music for all other instruments is written using the same archaic notation ? How would one ever play chamber music ?

From a practical point of view, you are fighting a losing battle. The effort would be better spent on mastering the traditional material, which may be not be optimal but are really not beyond anyone's capability (certainly not someone capable of soldering an alternative keyboard, something I could never do even if I had the patience for it).

Hot summer, huh... good on you ! It's mid winter here and bitterly cold. At least it's dry now. Enjoy your ice cream, I'll have some more hot soup :)

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 Post subject: Re: pedaling in Chopin etude questions
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:03 pm 
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techneut wrote:
I took the liberty to edit the post to delete the duplicate information.

Your arguments are valid too from a purely theoretical point of view. Although that quote by Rubinstein may well have been a quip... I don't think any pianist starting a career, and in their right mind, would start using a keyboard that nobody else uses. Think of going on tour and expecting a Janko piano in each concert hall ! And all the gigatons of published piano music to be converted to Janko (or even Klavarskribo) notation ! It would most severely curtail any musical career. And have you considered the fact that music for all other instruments is written using the same archaic notation ? How would one ever play chamber music ?
From a practical point of view, you are fighting a losing battle. The effort would be better spent on mastering the traditional material, which may be not be optimal but are really not beyond anyone's capability (certainly not someone capable of soldering an alternative keyboard, something I could never do even if I had the patience for it). Hot summer, huh... good on you ! It's mid winter here and bitterly cold. At least it's dry now. Enjoy your ice cream, I'll have some more hot soup :)

I admit to be a bit of an "one off" in this way of thinking and I totally agree with you that given the circumstances of the established piano culture, there's no way or hope for any changes in neither Kbd. layout or notation, any time soon and that has nothing to do with the advantages of other Kbd. layouts. Partly it has also to do with the continues stream of new pianist recruitment, which virtually perpetuates this good/ bad musical fundamentals and culture.
Yet, from the hobby musician standpoint there's a desire to simplify the Kbd and notation and that's where the uniform Janko and button accordion Kbd. layout technically outsmarts the traditional piano Kbd. layout. The same with the traditional notation. Thx God, I'm free to choose the Kbd. and notation I prefer. :)
In a way I'm grateful for the great masters F. Liszt and A. Rubinstein assessment of the Janko Kbd. layout, because now I can say: any pianist, less than their caliber is not entitles to contradict these great men. When I discovered my creative whistling to music, I sent a couple of audio-cassettes to my idols, the late organist Klaus Wunderlich and the late conductor Stuart Challender, of Sydney symphony orchestra and they professionally assessed it. From then on I couldn't care less the opinion of other people. I also performed with my sister's husband, the great concert pianist, Prof. Gerhard Erber from the Gewandhaus, Leipzig. That's my bit of musical pride I still enjoy today at age 73. :)


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 Post subject: Re: pedaling in Chopin etude questions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:18 pm 
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I did not realize the Janko keyboard was invented so long ago. Surely Liszt would have recognized its possibilities. One can only imagine what fiendishly difficult things he would have created ! My take is that instead of making things easier, it would simply lead to more complicated music. Traditional scales and chords would never satisfy a Janko composer for long.

Anyway, everybody needs a hobby and ideals, and I applaud you for it. Sorry there's not more interest in these quarters - we all seem to be traditional pianists here, content to take the keyboard as it is.

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