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 Post subject: Confusion with a time marker and note lengths
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:34 am
Posts: 7
One of the Czerny opus 740 studies another poster has mentioned (Opus 740 has some very fun to play pieces).

http://youtu.be/6e9iv9leq5k

I've been working through the piece a bit and wanted to see how the lower third page section would sound if I wrote it into Sibelius (a sheet music program with a playback option). I struggle with understanding very simple concepts often, this gives me an extra way to study a piece. Anyway enough of that.

The time signature is 2/4. The entire song has 16th notes running through, 12 per bar. (<is bar and measure the same thing?)

This is where I'm stuck, with a 2/4 signature, it is only possible to have eight 16th notes in a bar(according to the music program). The study has 1 beat falling on each six 16th notes, but the 4 in the 2/4 time signature indicates 2 quarter notes per bar, or eight 16ths limited per hand. It would make sense to me that the 16th notes in fact are actually 24th notes (which don't exist that I know of) if written correctly within the time signature--but have been put in otherwise for convenience.

I'm feeling very confused about what time signature puts 1 beat for 6 notes. I'm hoping someone here can make sense of my ramblings and explain simply enough so an idiot like me can understand =] thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion with a time marker and note lengths
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:14 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Illinois
If you look at the first measure, you will see that each group of 3 sixteenths has a "3" below it. This indicates that these are triplets. A triplet means that three of that note value (in this case 16th notes) are to be played in the same time as 2 without the triplet designation. Since 2 sixteenths = an eighth, when they are triplets, 3 will equal an eighth. This is the way the "24th" notes are created :D .

It is not un-common when such a division is continued throughout a piece or section, to just mark the first measure or so and then leave it up to the performer to remember.

In your Sibelius software, you will need to find the triplet tool and find out how Sibelius creates triplets. (I have not used Sibelius so I'm not sure how it does it.)

Hope this helps.

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion with a time marker and note lengths
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:24 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:34 am
Posts: 7
I see. I thought that might be the case. The Sibelius program can write 4 16th note triplets to a bar, as well as the two 6 note combinations to a bar. It won't write two 8th note waits with 5 note combinations though. I don't think I can write it quite like the sheets but probably pretty close where it would sound about the same. Perhaps I may stumble on a measure timing feature I hadn't noticed, who knows.

I guess there is no time marker that would allow 6 notes to a beat then? without using triplets or 6note combinations


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion with a time marker and note lengths
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:11 am
Posts: 243
Location: Adelaide, Australia
nowpiano wrote:
is bar and measure the same thing?

Yes. Bar is the British term and measure the American term.

nowpiano wrote:
I guess there is no time marker that would allow 6 notes to a beat then? without using triplets or 6note combinations

The lazy way would be to set the time signature to 12/16 instead of 2/4. But then you'll need to change all the 8th notes and 8th note rests to dotted 8ths.

_________________
Alexander Hanysz, http://hanysz.net


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion with a time marker and note lengths
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:14 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Illinois
nowpiano wrote:
I see. I thought that might be the case. The Sibelius program can write 4 16th note triplets to a bar, as well as the two 6 note combinations to a bar. It won't write two 8th note waits with 5 note combinations though. I don't think I can write it quite like the sheets but probably pretty close where it would sound about the same. Perhaps I may stumble on a measure timing feature I hadn't noticed, who knows.

I guess there is no time marker that would allow 6 notes to a beat then? without using triplets or 6note combinations


Though I have not used Sibelius, I have used Finale (its main competition) some and I currently use a free open source program called MuseScore. I can assure you that Sibelius is capable of doing just about anything that you can think of that is "legal". It is one of the two major programs even used in modern music publishing.

By "legal" I mean, in terms of rhythm, that it will allow you to put in any combination of rhythm values (including tuplets) that will fit into the restrictions of your meter signature. It won't let you for example, put a whole note in a measure/bar in 2/4 time since a whole note is twice as long, nor will it allow you to put 4 quarters and 1 eighth note in a measure of 4/4 time.

One problem right now is you are giving terminology that is not normal to music so I'm not clear on some of the things that your are asking. For example, what do you mean by "two 8th note waits"? Do you mean 8th note rests? Also, what do you mean by "time marker"? I have guessed that you are meaning rhythm value or duration value, but I'm not sure. Time marker would actually be closer to the concept of beat than to quarter notes and half notes etc. Are you translating from another language into English or just not sure what to call certain things?

What could be helpful is to scan in and upload some examples and write what you are calling them (such as the "waits" and "time markers") and then we can help with the proper terminology and with your questions.

As far as measure and bar, as Haysz, they mean the same thing. Here in the good ole US of A, they often get used interchangeably, though "measure" is more common for the space between bar lines and "bar" is more common as a shortened form of "bar line".

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion with a time marker and note lengths
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:53 am
Posts: 45
RSPIll wrote:
If you look at the first measure, you will see that each group of 3 sixteenths has a "3" below it. This indicates that these are triplets. A triplet means that three of that note value (in this case 16th notes) are to be played in the same time as 2 without the triplet designation. Since 2 sixteenths = an eighth, when they are triplets, 3 will equal an eighth piano classes. This is the way the "24th" notes are created :D .

It is not un-common when such a division is continued throughout a piece or section, to just mark the first measure or so and then leave it up to the performer to remember.

In your Sibelius software, you will need to find the triplet tool and find out how Sibelius creates triplets. (I have not used Sibelius so I'm not sure how it does it.)

Hope this helps.

Scott

I don't own or use such program yet but it's good to know. Quick question though, why do you use such programs? In general, does it make one play better on a piano?


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