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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:02 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
@Alexander. As I said to you before, I really do respect what you have to say. I must admit that I am not in a pursuit to acquire some new ability that I never had before in seeking to be able to play with independent tempos in each hand, however momentarily it might be. I'm just a Doubting Thomas asking for the same evidence that the other Apostles had: I'll believe it when I [hear] it. Like others here, I have heard many great pianists and have even been trained by several too, so why was this not a part of my experience? Why is there no recorded works of Chopin by someone that we can que-up and listen to a pianist do this? (Certainly a free spirit like Lang Lang perhaps, would do this, no? Can anyone recall a spot?) I maintain that if this was some modification that in art music (Romantic for now) was so minute that a highly-trained individual might not appreciate it, then it would never have served as sufficient to gain a reputation and identity, and this is nothing more than a "Tempest in a Tea Cup." Again, what I find to be obvious, is the manner in which Chopin composes irregular groupings against patterend accompaniment, and believe that this effect might be heard as the suggested rubato, but of course it is nothing of the sort.

Eddy, I cannot boast the loftly biography you have and have not trained with the pianistic gods at whose temples you worship, but I have heard of this very thing which you deny, like Thomas, from my one and only teacher. I am just sorry I did not persue it at the time! May it not come to pass that you be rebuked by the Master himself (and here I mean Chopin)!

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Richard Willmer
"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:35 pm 
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richard66 wrote:
musical-md wrote:
alf wrote:
jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
In fact it doesn't relate per se to the discussion but to the following your statement "Yet whenever he applies it to the right hand, the left follows suit. I just don't see how it logically can be otherwise; things that are out of sync (melody to harmony) sound terrible.", which is clearly false, since in piano music you have tons of examples of asynchronicity where, to make it simple, the hands don't go together. What a composer does all the time writing it down, why the performer couldn't do on principle on a smaller scale?


But again, we're talking about two different things here. When I said "he applies it" I was referring to the performer, not the composer. The score just is what it is, a document that's there and unalterable. The only thing that's at issue here is what the performer does while interpreting the score.


You don't get my point. Composer and performer live in the same acoustic world (and in Chopin they were one person). How can be that the out-of-sync by the composer is good and the out-of-sync by the performer "sounds terrible"? The acoustic principles on which they're based a pretty the same. And what's more, "logically" so?

You see, I simply don't agree on your explanation of why that kind of rubato could not be possible and was badly interpreted by students and commentators. That kind of rubato is possible and, as some recordings from the past prove, it was practiced by some pianists, like Saint-Saens.

Very simple: If a composer writes syncopation and you play straight, the performance is wrong. If he writes syncopation and you correctly play syncopation, the performance is correct. If he writes straight and you play syncopation, the performance is wrong. If he writes straight and you play straight, you play correctly. If you want to recite Shakespear, Dante or the Bible, if you say what's written, then you do good, if you say other than written in a recitaion then you fail. It's so simple that every child learns this in elementary music lessons. If you want to improvise on a Chopin Nocturne, by all means do so, but don't call it Chopin. In fact, if we have the freedom to change the melodic rhythm as we desire, then why not the other elements? Why not change the melody itself? Or the harmony? Perhaps the score is just a mild suggestion. :) Again, show me the money! I want to HEAR a famous pianist doing this, otherwise it is nothing more that arcane myth. Perhaps you could do some for us with the Mozart sonata I alluded to earlier. Right now I also have the Beethoven Appasionata under hand; consider this simple example: Imagine that a pianist doesn't make the distinction of the 16th note value of the second note of the piece, instead playing it as the 3rd note of a triplet, and does so manytimes throughout the piece while saying, "I'm doing rubato!" He/she will not pass his board exam and everyone will know he doesn't know rhythm!

Only a tasteless ignoramus would play that Mozart with rubato and only a boor would play triplets in Beethoven and call it rubato, but that is not because it might not by a strech of the imagination be rubato, but because rubato is uncalled for in Beethoven.


:?: Wow Richard, I really don't think you mean what you said. I dare say that any and every work (even a moto perpetuo by anyone) is subject to rubato. I personally would find any work of any era played without some rubato, to be ... well, unmusical, and unhuman. Just me speaking here, but rubato (the plain-old-one that we all know and love) is used to color emotional content and to help demarcate structure/form in a piece (at least that's how I use it). What piece of music ever composed is devoid of emotional content or structure/form? None. I do agree with you that one would not play that Mozart first movement (KV 545, i) with any "moderate" amounts of rubato, but to play with none at all, so that every beat is metronomically placed from beginning to the end, without regard to the changing elevations and curves and scenery? I think that performer would be criticised quite substantially, and rightly so. However, your reply also seems to suggest that some works or composers are not subject to certain musical parameters, like rubato. This was one of the arguments I made very early on regarding the Chopin rubato (not to be confused with rubato in Chopin), that if it were genuine then it would be a musical parameter suitable for all music (symphonies, string quartets, etc.), just like plain rubato, dynamics, accents, articulations, etc., are.

Wow, we (or I) can add Chopin rubato to religion, politics, evolution and abortion. Never did I imagine I would stimulate such heated debate. It's good that we're all still cyber friends. :D Even Joe and I have been together on this one! :wink:

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:28 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
I can't explain myself more clearly; I have really carefully tried to limit the discussion to the kernle of the issue: a 2-layered (composed melody appart from composed accompaniment) tempo disturbance (rubato) performed by a single pianist.

You don't understand the issue so you can't limit it properly.

Quote:
Almost every evidence raised to support this questionable musical performing feature (BTW if you see the post you directed me to you'll see I never said "tasteless", only "unmusical") has been academic. You fail to recognize that I myself provided excellent historic reference early on to the notion that you support.

You provided a questionable entry from the Harvard Dictionary of Music. At music school you learn that this sort of thing is insufficient for research. Most music schools don't even use it; they use Grove's instead, and any research prof will tell you not to ever use Grove's as a source - only use the bibliography for each entry as a starting point. My excerpts from Eigeldinger refute the suggestion that 'rubato' was never meant to indicate tempo fluctuations; even in the sense they use, 'rubato' was always meant to indicate both time and dynamic fluctuations - passionate speech. I suggest reading the Eigeldinger quotes again; it's ridiculous to suggest that a term that means 'stolen time' doesn't refer to stolen time in Chopin's music, especially when his most reliable students attest to the fact that it does in fact refer to stolen time.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:46 pm 
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Terez wrote:
musical-md wrote:
I can't explain myself more clearly; I have really carefully tried to limit the discussion to the kernle of the issue: a 2-layered (composed melody appart from composed accompaniment) tempo disturbance (rubato) performed by a single pianist.

You don't understand the issue so you can't limit it properly.

Quote:
Almost every evidence raised to support this questionable musical performing feature (BTW if you see the post you directed me to you'll see I never said "tasteless", only "unmusical") has been academic. You fail to recognize that I myself provided excellent historic reference early on to the notion that you support.

You provided a questionable entry from the Harvard Dictionary of Music. At music school you learn that this sort of thing is insufficient for research. Most music schools don't even use it; they use Grove's instead, and any research prof will tell you not to ever use Grove's as a source - only use the bibliography for each entry as a starting point. My excerpts from Eigeldinger refute the suggestion that 'rubato' was never meant to indicate tempo fluctuations; even in the sense they use, 'rubato' was always meant to indicate both time and dynamic fluctuations - passionate speech. I suggest reading the Eigeldinger quotes again; it's ridiculous to suggest that a term that means 'stolen time' doesn't refer to stolen time in Chopin's music, especially when his most reliable students attest to the fact that it does in fact refer to stolen time.

Wow. We must be speaking different languages. Where in the world did you ever get that I made "the suggestion that 'rubato' was never meant to indicate tempo fluctuations"? Terez, I'm saddened that your tone has also taken a turn towards the mean and insulting with: "it's ridiculous to suggest that a term that means 'stolen time' doesn't refer to stolen time in Chopin's music." I never said nor implied such a naive notion. This again makes me feel that you and I haven't communicated a single word to eachother this entire time. I'm curious (given what you've just written): what do you think that I am saying?

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:15 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Wow. We must be speaking different languages. Where in the world did you ever get that I made "the suggestion that 'rubato' was never meant to indicate tempo fluctuations"? Terez, I'm saddened that your tone has also taken a turn towards the mean and insulting with: "it's ridiculous to suggest that a term that means 'stolen time' doesn't refer to stolen time in Chopin's music."

Take a step back and examine the tone of your last few posts.

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:47 am 
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richard66 wrote:
musical-md wrote:
alf wrote:
jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
Out of sync in music is more the rule than the exception. I mean just the writing, the composition, not the performance of it.
It'd bore us to death otherwise. Really, rethink it a bit.


Not sure what you mean here, or at least it seems contradictory to me. I'm only talking about performance, not composition or writing, and I only mean that when, e.g., an A-flat in the right hand is written against, e.g., an undulating nocturne bass and that A-flat goes with a D-flat in the bass it should be compressed along with that D-flat (unless of course there's hand breaking, there are different views on that), regardless of what rubato is being applied. That is, the hands apply rubato together, not asynchronously.


Problem is that any performance starts from the score. Don't you have out of syncs at any suspension, anticipated bass, off-beat syncopation and all kind of rhythmic gimmicks a composer can devise to elude a listener's expectations? The Andante from Bach's Italian Concerto is an effective example of rubato embedded in the score. The LH keeps going and the RH does all kind of out of sync stuff.

Alfonzo,
With all due respect, you're changing the subject, which is fine to do if you like but the former arguments do not segue. The discussion (or the controversy anyway) on rubato cares nothing about a rhythm indicated in a score. It not about composition, its about performing in a manner not indicated in (contrary to) the score. If the score shows a treble-dominated texture with melody accompanied by simple patterns (Alberti bass for example), the question is, "Is it valid/tasteful/authentic to play the melody not simultaneously with the note(s) indicated in the score that are indicated simultaneously?" (E.g., in Mozart's Sonata facile in C major) We aren't exploring the history of rhythmic development in art music. That would be a fascinating discussion but is seperate and appart. Any reference to a score (anybody's) to argue about the "2-layered (contextually-dissociated) rubato" misses the point/issue entirely.

Do I get you, Eddy? If a composer writes it out it cannot be rubato, but rubato is only when the performer does it? strange thatif the results being the same, a technique changes name accordingly if it the composer or the perfomer who applies it.

Hi Richard,
Sorry I missed your question earlier. I'm not sure if you're being rhetorical or not so I will answer this. Though there are compositional devices like rhythmic modulation, rubato is not composed, though it may be indicated by the composer. This is true not only when a composer writes "rubato," but also any of the directions to bend the tempo: meno mosso, piu mosso, poco ritardando, and the like. Another way to consider it is to look at the WTC of Bach as an example. I don't think you will find the instruction "rubato" anywhere (at least I can't think of one off the top of my head in an urtext edition) but the music (all of it) is certainly performed with rubato as part of every artist's interpretation. So my final answer is, a composer may indicate rubato, but rubato is chiefly therefore the domain of the interpreter. (IMO).

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:57 am 
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Terez wrote:
musical-md wrote:
Wow. We must be speaking different languages. Where in the world did you ever get that I made "the suggestion that 'rubato' was never meant to indicate tempo fluctuations"? Terez, I'm saddened that your tone has also taken a turn towards the mean and insulting with: "it's ridiculous to suggest that a term that means 'stolen time' doesn't refer to stolen time in Chopin's music."

Take a step back and examine the tone of your last few posts.

Ok, I did and I think I behaved myself as a gentleman. :)
musical-md wrote:
I'm ready and willing to happily move on if anyone thinks it is becoming toxic or that we've covered it sufficiently (even exhaustively) already.
I for one think so. :(

My last word to Terez: I think Beyonce is a fine singer, but Christina, IMO, is a vocal virtuoso. Like many virtuosos, she is sometimes not very musical. I find some of her very best artistry to be on the CD that she cut in Spanish, and in her guest spot with Andre Bocelli on his Spanish album Amore. :wink:

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:22 am 
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musical-md wrote:
You fail to recognize that I myself provided excellent historic reference early on to the notion that you support.

I myself - gotta love that :lol:

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Nothing is always absolutely so -- Sturgeon's law
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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:02 am 
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techneut wrote:
musical-md wrote:
You fail to recognize that I myself provided excellent historic reference early on to the notion that you support.

I myself - gotta love that :lol:

Gotta love Dutchies nitpicking our English, anyway. :wink:

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"Z Czernym poznałem się na panie brat—na dwa fortepiana często z nim u niego grywałem. Dobry człowiek, ale nic więcej..." - Fryderyk Chopin


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Terez wrote:
techneut wrote:
musical-md wrote:
You fail to recognize that I myself provided excellent historic reference early on to the notion that you support.

I myself - gotta love that :lol:

Gotta love Dutchies nitpicking our English, anyway. :wink:

So many words, so few mistakes! :wink: At least I did do a ... whatever.
Redundancy, there was done (unknowingly) with poetic liscense, for purpose of emphasis. :mrgreen:
(I still haven't figured out the Mr. Green thingy)

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:57 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
richard66 wrote:
musical-md wrote:
alf wrote:
jlr43 wrote:
Quote:
In fact it doesn't relate per se to the discussion but to the following your statement "Yet whenever he applies it to the right hand, the left follows suit. I just don't see how it logically can be otherwise; things that are out of sync (melody to harmony) sound terrible.", which is clearly false, since in piano music you have tons of examples of asynchronicity where, to make it simple, the hands don't go together. What a composer does all the time writing it down, why the performer couldn't do on principle on a smaller scale?


But again, we're talking about two different things here. When I said "he applies it" I was referring to the performer, not the composer. The score just is what it is, a document that's there and unalterable. The only thing that's at issue here is what the performer does while interpreting the score.


You don't get my point. Composer and performer live in the same acoustic world (and in Chopin they were one person). How can be that the out-of-sync by the composer is good and the out-of-sync by the performer "sounds terrible"? The acoustic principles on which they're based a pretty the same. And what's more, "logically" so?

You see, I simply don't agree on your explanation of why that kind of rubato could not be possible and was badly interpreted by students and commentators. That kind of rubato is possible and, as some recordings from the past prove, it was practiced by some pianists, like Saint-Saens.

Very simple: If a composer writes syncopation and you play straight, the performance is wrong. If he writes syncopation and you correctly play syncopation, the performance is correct. If he writes straight and you play syncopation, the performance is wrong. If he writes straight and you play straight, you play correctly. If you want to recite Shakespear, Dante or the Bible, if you say what's written, then you do good, if you say other than written in a recitaion then you fail. It's so simple that every child learns this in elementary music lessons. If you want to improvise on a Chopin Nocturne, by all means do so, but don't call it Chopin. In fact, if we have the freedom to change the melodic rhythm as we desire, then why not the other elements? Why not change the melody itself? Or the harmony? Perhaps the score is just a mild suggestion. :) Again, show me the money! I want to HEAR a famous pianist doing this, otherwise it is nothing more that arcane myth. Perhaps you could do some for us with the Mozart sonata I alluded to earlier. Right now I also have the Beethoven Appasionata under hand; consider this simple example: Imagine that a pianist doesn't make the distinction of the 16th note value of the second note of the piece, instead playing it as the 3rd note of a triplet, and does so manytimes throughout the piece while saying, "I'm doing rubato!" He/she will not pass his board exam and everyone will know he doesn't know rhythm!

Only a tasteless ignoramus would play that Mozart with rubato and only a boor would play triplets in Beethoven and call it rubato, but that is not because it might not by a strech of the imagination be rubato, but because rubato is uncalled for in Beethoven.


:?: Wow Richard, I really don't think you mean what you said. I dare say that any and every work (even a moto perpetuo by anyone) is subject to rubato. I personally would find any work of any era played without some rubato, to be ... well, unmusical, and unhuman. Just me speaking here, but rubato (the plain-old-one that we all know and love) is used to color emotional content and to help demarcate structure/form in a piece (at least that's how I use it). What piece of music ever composed is devoid of emotional content or structure/form? None. I do agree with you that one would not play that Mozart first movement (KV 545, i) with any "moderate" amounts of rubato, but to play with none at all, so that every beat is metronomically placed from beginning to the end, without regard to the changing elevations and curves and scenery? I think that performer would be criticised quite substantially, and rightly so. However, your reply also seems to suggest that some works or composers are not subject to certain musical parameters, like rubato. This was one of the arguments I made very early on regarding the Chopin rubato (not to be confused with rubato in Chopin), that if it were genuine then it would be a musical parameter suitable for all music (symphonies, string quartets, etc.), just like plain rubato, dynamics, accents, articulations, etc., are.

Wow, we (or I) can add Chopin rubato to religion, politics, evolution and abortion. Never did I imagine I would stimulate such heated debate. It's good that we're all still cyber friends. :D Even Joe and I have been together on this one! :wink:

Yes, Eddy, you stirred a hornet's nest! I have many thoughts on this I would like to share with you, but I want you first to promise that you will not take them personally, because I feel no animosity whatsoever to you!

I would not add rubato to Mozart, but I do add the odd ritenuto at the end of phrases and things like that, of course. I meant playing Mozart as if he were Rachmaninoff!

I have a recording of Chopin's songs, which I quite enjoy. Some are quite lovely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgYUMOr1 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVd6NIe9 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9UYoQ2a ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=204RoKZajTw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH1xfZYR ... 56C636A0C7

On the record sleeve there was a long article on Polish song and of its importance in order to understand Chopin. Maybe these songs offer a clue?

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Richard Willmer
"Please do not shoot the pianist
He is doing his best."
Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America: Leadville


Last edited by richard66 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:00 pm 
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It's too bad the Schumann wasn't responsible for this "2-layered rubato thingy." If he were it would be totally understandable. Eusebius keeping exact time in his left hand, Floristan doing his own thing in his right, and Master Raro getting the two in sync from time to time.

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:12 pm 
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RSPIll wrote:
It's too bad the Schumann wasn't responsible for this "2-layered rubato thingy." If he were it would be totally understandable. Eusebius keeping exact time in his left hand, Floristan doing his own thing in his right, and Master Raro getting the two in sync from time to time.

Scott

:lol: :lol: That would have been too easy! We would just assign it to mental imbalance, bipolar disorder and/or schizophrenia.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:45 pm 
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Richard,
Thanks for the links. I listened to them all. I would never have thought these to be Chopin. My knowledge of Polish or slavic tongues in general is nill, except that I understand the Russian alphabet a bit. Chopin's style in these songs, to me, is so different from how I know him as the composer of piano music. BTW, the singer (a lovely brunett) does a great job. I have no idea what these songs are about, but the are most soul-full.

Your having posted songs, has caused me to realize that right from my original post on this thread, with my reference to singing, etc., I wonder if I inadvertently pointed the discussion in the wrong direction, because my intended theme was tempo shifts (rubato) of melody vs accompaniment in composed piano solo works. It is evident that many folks contributed with references to singers and vocal music, etc. which of course meant nothing to me seeking a discussion in application of rubato to piano literature. I'm not wanting to rehash anything, just making the observation that It probably would have been better if I had never made any reference to singers, accompaning singers as analogy, etc.

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Eddy M. del Rio, MD
"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:10 pm 
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Terez wrote:
Gotta love Dutchies nitpicking our English, anyway. :wink:

I wouldn't dream of nitpicking anyone's English here.
It just struck my funnybone that someone would write "I myself". AFAIK that's a first on this forum. It had to be Eddy of course :P

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:41 pm 
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techneut wrote:
Terez wrote:
Gotta love Dutchies nitpicking our English, anyway. :wink:

I wouldn't dream of nitpicking anyone's English here.
It just struck my funnybone that someone would write "I myself". AFAIK that's a first on this forum. It had to be Eddy of course :P

Use Reflexive Pronouns to Add Emphasis

Reflexive pronouns can also be used to add emphasis to a sentence. (In case you care, they are then called intensive pronouns.) For example, if you had witnessed a murder, you could say, “I myself saw the madman's handiwork.” Sure, it's a tad dramatic, but it's grammatically correct. If you want to emphasize how proud you are of your new artwork, you could say, “I painted it myself.” Again, myself just adds emphasis. The meaning of the sentence doesn't change if you take out the word myself; it just has a different feeling because now it lacks the added emphasis.
Also, many English translations of the Bible start Romans 15:14 with "I myself ...", so the next time you need a little emphasis, throw in a good reflexive pronoun. :wink:

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"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne


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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:24 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Also, many English translations of the Bible start Romans 15:14 with "I myself ...", so the next time you need a little emphasis, throw in a good reflexive pronoun. :wink:

Yea, verily. What is good enough for St. Paul is good enough for PS :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:12 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Your having posted songs, has caused me to realize that right from my original post on this thread, with my reference to singing, etc., I wonder if I inadvertently pointed the discussion in the wrong direction, because my intended theme was tempo shifts (rubato) of melody vs accompaniment in composed piano solo works. It is evident that many folks contributed with references to singers and vocal music, etc. which of course meant nothing to me seeking a discussion in application of rubato to piano literature. I'm not wanting to rehash anything, just making the observation that It probably would have been better if I had never made any reference to singers, accompaning singers as analogy, etc.

This is a worrying attitude. If you cut the piano solo repertoire off from the rest of the musical tree, it will eventually wither and become dry and meaningless. We should be learning as much as we possibly can from singers and other instrumentalists. And if you hear a duo or ensemble doing something interesting, you should ask how much of it you can possibly imitate on the piano.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:37 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
Richard,
Thanks for the links. I listened to them all. I would never have thought these to be Chopin. My knowledge of Polish or slavic tongues in general is nill, except that I understand the Russian alphabet a bit. Chopin's style in these songs, to me, is so different from how I know him as the composer of piano music. BTW, the singer (a lovely brunett) does a great job. I have no idea what these songs are about, but the are most soul-full.

Your having posted songs, has caused me to realize that right from my original post on this thread, with my reference to singing, etc., I wonder if I inadvertently pointed the discussion in the wrong direction, because my intended theme was tempo shifts (rubato) of melody vs accompaniment in composed piano solo works. It is evident that many folks contributed with references to singers and vocal music, etc. which of course meant nothing to me seeking a discussion in application of rubato to piano literature. I'm not wanting to rehash anything, just making the observation that It probably would have been better if I had never made any reference to singers, accompaning singers as analogy, etc.


I had that in mind, but I was wondering if these might shed some light on his solo piano music and how it should be played. These are Poles, by the way. Can it not be that these intimate pieces, never intended to be published or played in public and to be burnt after his death, give us a key how Chopin felt his music should be played?

I often wonder also, supposing he were not known by one and by all (Poles apart and no pun intended!) as Frédéric François Chopin but as Fryderyk Franciszek Krzyżanowski (His mother's maiden name) would people not play his music differently?

Can you really disassociate ensemble from solo music? In what way would rubato change anything? If it works for a singer and a pianist why can in not for a pianist or, if it becomes a mess, does it make any difference how many people make it?

I liked these so much that I ordered a copy of the CD (same versions as on You Tube).

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:45 pm 
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techneut wrote:
musical-md wrote:
Also, many English translations of the Bible start Romans 15:14 with "I myself ...", so the next time you need a little emphasis, throw in a good reflexive pronoun. :wink:

Yea, verily. What is good enough for St. Paul is good enough for PS :lol:


What is good enough for SP is good enough for PS... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:12 pm 
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hanysz wrote:
This is a worrying attitude.
I'll just beat Chris to it by stating that I didn't know that attitudes could worry. :wink:

Alex, I assure you that I'm not doing what you're suggesting, this is just getting back to the matter of evidence category, and Richard is suggesting the same. Just as embouchure of wind-playing has nothing to do with piano playing, so also does the fact that an ensemble of musicians can do a thing (that "2-layered rubato thingy") not prove that a single pianist can do it; whether he/she should or shouldn't isn't my issue. I feel like I'm going in circles. Please :) respond henceforth, if you or others wish, just to the following:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:29 pm 
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But how, pray, can you seaprate one thing from another? Is the piano so different from two violins? Do they not make the same music?

Are you not saying this:

"I cannot play this type of rubato so therefore I choose to say it does not exist and even if it does I do not want to acknowledge its existence"?

I mean no agression to you, but just food for thought. Do examine yourself and see.

I am not sure I could play it either, but I realise it might be second nature to some.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:57 pm 
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Sorry, Richard, but I think two violins is a lot different than a piano.
Eddy - I think I've got a mazurka to show you - played by Rubinstein. At least I remember hearing him do rubato quite clearly. Now I just have to find the recording. Be back later....

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:59 pm 
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richard66 wrote:
techneut wrote:
musical-md wrote:
Also, many English translations of the Bible start Romans 15:14 with "I myself ...", so the next time you need a little emphasis, throw in a good reflexive pronoun. :wink:

Yea, verily. What is good enough for St. Paul is good enough for PS :lol:


What is good enough for SP is good enough for PS... :roll:


Speaking of reflexives...

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:06 pm 
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musical-md wrote:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post. :roll:


You didn't bother to listen to the Saint-Saens example I posted a few pages back with the indication of the spots with the kind of contrametric rubato possibly used by Chopin, did you?

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Terez wrote:
In a way I can see why you used that example. I think he still mostly uses hands-together rubato, though I can see some element of the 'steady accompaniment' rubato in the bars you indicated. His LH still gets a little off-kilter, though, don't you think?


Only if you are a metronome. In those passages LH actually is a tempo as humanly (and still musically) possible. RH shapes delicately the melody "around" the LH. I find it so fresh and irresistible. You don't hear anymore that style today (and yesterday either).

Terez wrote:
However...I found what appears to be a piano roll of Saint-Saëns doing some Chopin - the 15/2 nocturne (they even include the quote :lol:). Is that real? I'm guessing it is, since the style seems much the same. I don't understand the technology, so I'm not sure what the differences are between a roll and a recording.


Terez, I was afraid you would do it. To my ears that piano roll is quite useless. Piano rolls quality varies but I'm worried if you say that the style seems much the same. It's a parody, plus I don't hear a steady tempo by the LH. There's a lot of what is called "agogic rubato" not the contrametric rubato you're looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:39 pm 
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richard66 wrote:
But how, pray, can you seaprate one thing from another? Is the piano so different from two violins? Do they not make the same music?

Are you not saying this:

"I cannot play this type of rubato so therefore I choose to say it does not exist and even if it does I do not want to acknowledge its existence"?

I mean no agression to you, but just food for thought. Do examine yourself and see.

I am not sure I could play it either, but I realise it might be second nature to some.

Richard, YOU'RE MAKING ME PULL MY HAIR OUT, and I don't have hardly any left. :!: If my question is whether a single pianist can (not may) do a thing or not, it makes no difference to me what an ensemble can do?

Sigh.

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Last edited by musical-md on Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:39 pm 
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pianolady wrote:
Sorry, Richard, but I think two violins is a lot different than a piano.
Eddy - I think I've got a mazurka to show you - played by Rubinstein. At least I remember hearing him do rubato quite clearly. Now I just have to find the recording. Be back later....

Thank you Monica!

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:47 pm 
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alf wrote:
musical-md wrote:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post. :roll:


You didn't bother to listen to the Saint-Saens example I posted a few pages back with the indication of the spots with the kind of contrametric rubato possibly used by Chopin, did you?

No I didn't, but not intentionally. Can you find that again for me? But, are we talking about the same thing or not? "Contrametric" rubato may suggest that we're not, because the notion of a rubato going against a meter sounds once again like a composed device like hemiola (meter against meter) or something. This has to be an interpretive feature that the pianist provides, while suspending the melody-accompaniment relationship in the score. If so, I want to hear this (and hope I have the score for the music). :)

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:31 pm 
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Sorry, Eddy. For some reason the Rubinstein videos on Youtube won't play for me. I don't know why, they used to....
You'll probably have better examples with what the other members are showing you anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:44 pm 
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musical-md wrote:
alf wrote:
musical-md wrote:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post. :roll:


You didn't bother to listen to the Saint-Saens example I posted a few pages back with the indication of the spots with the kind of contrametric rubato possibly used by Chopin, did you?

No I didn't, but not intentionally. Can you find that again for me?


Sure I can, but I won't do it. I'm not selling anything here.

musical-md wrote:
But, are we talking about the same thing or not? "Contrametric" rubato may suggest that we're not, because the notion of a rubato going against a meter sounds once again like a composed device like hemiola (meter against meter) or something. This has to be an interpretive feature that the pianist provides, while suspending the melody-accompaniment relationship in the score. If so, I want to hear this (and hope I have the score for the music). :)


You see, Eddy, you brutalized this thread and you cannot even understand the very basic terms of the issue. Furthermore, consider this: why did you unintentionally mispell my name (which is in signature to every post of mine)? And why did you unintentionally miss that Saint-Saens recording? I suspect that you don't read the posts you reply to, am I wrong? This could explain why you then make up irrelevant examples like the previous Mozart and Beethoven ones. Or childishly scramble the letters of a sentence to prove who knows what.

And here again, your speculations about contrametric rubato are made on the whim of the moment, you clearly don't know what contrametric rubato is.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:27 pm 
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alf wrote:
musical-md wrote:
alf wrote:
musical-md wrote:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I think (?) that would have been a better initial post. :roll:


You didn't bother to listen to the Saint-Saens example I posted a few pages back with the indication of the spots with the kind of contrametric rubato possibly used by Chopin, did you?

No I didn't, but not intentionally. Can you find that again for me?


Sure I can, but I won't do it. I'm not selling anything here.

musical-md wrote:
But, are we talking about the same thing or not? "Contrametric" rubato may suggest that we're not, because the notion of a rubato going against a meter sounds once again like a composed device like hemiola (meter against meter) or something. This has to be an interpretive feature that the pianist provides, while suspending the melody-accompaniment relationship in the score. If so, I want to hear this (and hope I have the score for the music). :)


You see, Eddy, you brutalized this thread and you cannot even understand the very basic terms of the issue. Furthermore, consider this: why did you unintentionally mispell my name (which is in signature to every post of mine)? And why did you unintentionally miss that Saint-Saens recording? I suspect that you don't read the posts you reply to, am I wrong? This could explain why you then make up irrelevant examples like the previous Mozart and Beethoven ones. Or childishly scramble the letters of a sentence to prove who knows what.

And here again, your speculations about contrametric rubato are made on the whim of the moment, you clearly don't know what contrametric rubato is.

:lol: :roll: Whatever Alfonso.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:35 am 
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musical-md wrote:
Alex, I assure you that I'm not doing what you're suggesting, this is just getting back to the matter of evidence category, and Richard is suggesting the same. Just as embouchure of wind-playing has nothing to do with piano playing, so also does the fact that an ensemble of musicians can do a thing (that "2-layered rubato thingy") not prove that a single pianist can do it; whether he/she should or shouldn't isn't my issue. I feel like I'm going in circles. Please :) respond henceforth, if you or others wish, just to the following:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I feel as though every time one of your points is answered, you just go ahead and move the goalposts. I thought you wanted to know whether famous pianists do this nowadays in concert performances. There's absolutely no doubt that it's possible. (Twentieth century composers have asked pianists for much greater independence of hands.) I can record a few bars of a Chopin nocturne for you right now, if you promise not to move the goalposts again!

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:24 am 
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hanysz wrote:
musical-md wrote:
Alex, I assure you that I'm not doing what you're suggesting, this is just getting back to the matter of evidence category, and Richard is suggesting the same. Just as embouchure of wind-playing has nothing to do with piano playing, so also does the fact that an ensemble of musicians can do a thing (that "2-layered rubato thingy") not prove that a single pianist can do it; whether he/she should or shouldn't isn't my issue. I feel like I'm going in circles. Please :) respond henceforth, if you or others wish, just to the following:

Historical documents indicate the existence of a performance practice by solo pianists (mostly if not entirely connected to Chopin) of a trait whereby the composed melody (RH, LH, imbedded in both) becomes rhythmically dissociated from the accompaniment that it is composed together with. This pianist has never witnessed (nor been taught) such and desires to witness it if it is, in fact, an extant practice. Citations of recordings with work and measure number (or links to same) or submitted recordings of self-generated examples, that would allow for simultaneous visual (score) and auditory review are highly desirable.

I feel as though every time one of your points is answered, you just go ahead and move the goalposts. I thought you wanted to know whether famous pianists do this nowadays in concert performances. There's absolutely no doubt that it's possible. (Twentieth century composers have asked pianists for much greater independence of hands.) I can record a few bars of a Chopin nocturne for you right now, if you promise not to move the goalposts again!

Alexander,
I am glad that you didn't write me off. I am bothered (mildly) that you think I have changed the terms of the discussion when I have tried repeatedly to limit the discussion to my issue (repeatedly defined), against a tsunami of singers, styles, ensembles and historical (forensic) evidence. My question has always been about what I have re-expressed just recently in clearest fashion (I think). I would truely be honored if you would demonstrate this. (And I think other inquiring minds want to know.) Do pianists today (or even of the 20th century, including the golden era of the virtuosos) perform this way, or no?

Regards,
Eddy

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:44 am 
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musical-md wrote:
I would truely be honored if you would demonstrate this.

You shouldn't feel too honoured. This is a hastily made home recording. It displays neither beautiful performance nor good sound quality. But I hope it demonstrates the thing we're talking about.

I'm attaching four takes of the beginning of a well known Chopin piece. Take 1 is as close to being strictly in tempo as I can manage. Pay attention to the ornament at the beginning of bar 2. For my taste, the turn sounds hurried if played without rubato. Take 2 is with rubato as it is usually done, allowing a little extra time at the start of bar 2, with hands remaining together. Take 3 is my impression of the rubato that Mozart, Chopin and others describe: the right hand takes extra time and catches up later, while the left hand remains in strict time. Take 4 is the same sort of rubato exaggerated to a ridiculous extent, to demonstrate what is possible.

You'll notice that take 4 is a little faster and louder than the other versions: I was rather tense while doing this. I had four practice runs before recording the final version. It would probably take another twenty goes to get it feeling relaxed and completely in control. I'm not saying it's easy to do this, but it certainly is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:07 am 
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hanysz wrote:
musical-md wrote:
I would truely be honored if you would demonstrate this.

You shouldn't feel too honoured. This is a hastily made home recording. It displays neither beautiful performance nor good sound quality. But I hope it demonstrates the thing we're talking about.

I'm attaching four takes of the beginning of a well known Chopin piece. Take 1 is as close to being strictly in tempo as I can manage. Pay attention to the ornament at the beginning of bar 2. For my taste, the turn sounds hurried if played without rubato. Take 2 is with rubato as it is usually done, allowing a little extra time at the start of bar 2, with hands remaining together. Take 3 is my impression of the rubato that Mozart, Chopin and others describe: the right hand takes extra time and catches up later, while the left hand remains in strict time. Take 4 is the same sort of rubato exaggerated to a ridiculous extent, to demonstrate what is possible.

You'll notice that take 4 is a little faster and louder than the other versions: I was rather tense while doing this. I had four practice runs before recording the final version. It would probably take another twenty goes to get it feeling relaxed and completely in control. I'm not saying it's easy to do this, but it certainly is possible.

Pay attention class! :!: THIS is what I'm talking about! :P Alex your descriptions are exactly what I perceived after listening BEFORE reading them (I went right for the download). I almost laughed out loud as I heard take 4, fearing that you might hurt yourself. :lol: Thank you very much! You have given me (and very likely others) aural insight to a lost performing practice of mythic character. Now be honest. Is this not the first time you have ever done this kind of rubato? Maybe not, but this was the first time I have heard it. Now if anyone else wants to start a seperate thread on the aesthetics and philosophy of this kind of performance practice, you can ... but it won't be me :)

Alex, I hope you had a great recital on the 3rd (Bach/Szymanowksi)!

Regards,
Eddy

All's Well that Ends Well

Edit: changed spelling of aesthetics

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Last edited by musical-md on Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:42 am 
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pianolady wrote:
Sorry, Richard, but I think two violins is a lot different than a piano.

I was under the impression they were musical instruments used to play music by musicians. Maybe I am mistaken. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:45 am 
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musical-md wrote:
richard66 wrote:
But how, pray, can you seaprate one thing from another? Is the piano so different from two violins? Do they not make the same music?

Are you not saying this:

"I cannot play this type of rubato so therefore I choose to say it does not exist and even if it does I do not want to acknowledge its existence"?

I mean no agression to you, but just food for thought. Do examine yourself and see.

I am not sure I could play it either, but I realise it might be second nature to some.

Richard, YOU'RE MAKING ME PULL MY HAIR OUT, and I don't have hardly any left. :!: If my question is whether a single pianist can (not may) do a thing or not, it makes no difference to me what an ensemble can do?

Sigh.


And I am saying, if you (or I) cannot, does that follow that no one else can? This is what I am saying! And do keep your hair on, please! :)

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:52 am 
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musical-md wrote:
It has been said that the accompaniment vs melody rubato -- what I am calling Musical Dissociative Disorder -- is something that is best exemplified in the vocal literature, as I presume, a demonstration of melodic freedom of the singer, etc. However, I would have to say that listening to a performance where the accompanist (pianist or conductor) did not in fact accomodate the accompaniment to the singer's interpretation, thereby maintaining the vertical integrity of the composition and limiting rubato to the tempo as a whole, would be looked upon as a poor accompanist indeed. I'm sure many pianists here have good or even extensive accompanying experience (I do), and the fact that no matter how flexible the soloist or conductor (choral works) can be, that the pianist can "follow" is recognized as the achievment of art and skill -- just plain ensemble ability. This all came back to me as I was listening to a Chopin Nocturne performed by violin (melody) and piano (accompaniment) and recognized as I listened that I would be horrified to hear any dissociation of the melodic rhythm from that of the accompaniment in this two-performer version. Why should it be any different if performed just by a pianist? I maintain that such a dissociation is both unmusical and contrary to everything a musician trains by.

I am glad that you didn't write me off. I am bothered (mildly) that you think I have changed the terms of the discussion when I have tried repeatedly to limit the discussion to my issue (repeatedly defined), against a tsunami of singers, styles, ensembles and historical (forensic) evidence. My question has always been about what I have re-expressed just recently in clearest fashion (I think). I would truely be honored if you would demonstrate this. (And I think other inquiring minds want to know.) Do pianists today (or even of the 20th century, including the golden era of the virtuosos) perform this way, or no?

No longer the question of evolution but the evolution of the question... :roll:

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Last edited by richard66 on Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:58 pm 
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richard66 wrote:
pianolady wrote:
Sorry, Richard, but I think two violins is a lot different than a piano.

I was under the impression they were musical instruments used to play music by musicians. Maybe I am mistaken. :roll:

A pianist is one person with one head, and two violinists have two heads which means you have two heads working out their playing style instead of just one pianist (and his one head..haha). That's what I mean by being a lot different.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:45 pm 
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alf wrote:
Terez, I was afraid you would do it. To my ears that piano roll is quite useless. Piano rolls quality varies but I'm worried if you say that the style seems much the same. It's a parody, plus I don't hear a steady tempo by the LH. There's a lot of what is called "agogic rubato" not the contrametric rubato you're looking for.

By 'parody', do you mean it's a fake, or you don't like his interpretation?

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:05 am 
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Terez wrote:
alf wrote:
Terez, I was afraid you would do it. To my ears that piano roll is quite useless. Piano rolls quality varies but I'm worried if you say that the style seems much the same. It's a parody, plus I don't hear a steady tempo by the LH. There's a lot of what is called "agogic rubato" not the contrametric rubato you're looking for.

By 'parody', do you mean it's a fake, or you don't like his interpretation?


If you listen to the electric recordings of SS and compare them to the available reproductions of his piano rolls, you'd think that's a different pianist is playing. What emerges from that piano roll is not even an 'interpretation', it's something totally distorted and artistically meaningless from my point of view.

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 Post subject: Re: That 2-layered rubato thingy
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:30 am 
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It didn't seem incredibly distorted to me, but I suppose we could argue about that ad infinitum and not get anywhere. I imagine you'll take it as a sign of my inferior sensibilities, but I suppose there's not anything I can do about that, either.

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