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 Post subject: use of metronome
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am
Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
Hi Guys,
I just want to hear your opnion about use of metronome for your practice...personally I have never used the metronome for my students and my self in the past 30 years during the prractice session.

. But I do use the metronome to check the speed or quideline for playing ONLY.

Could some one tell me if you do use the metronome or not?? the reason for that is I have some concert pianist is keen on metronome for pratice?? How still there is a good debate..


Your feed back is important..

Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:05 am 
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Posts: 1278
Hello there, John; Pete here. I noticed chopinmusic.net is not operational right now. I wonder why.

Anyway... Personally, the metronome is key for checking my progress and pacing my tempo. Without it, I'd be lost in the ocean of notes that is Chopin's Op11., et al.

I hope I'll be able to get back to chopinmusic.net to cut and paste some of my posts. I don't think I have the patience to re-type all of that.





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Pete


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:48 am 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
haaaaaa haaaa, Good to hear you Pete. Yes, metronome for checking in progress......
Chopin froum, ...lack of funding????


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:31 am 
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Posts: 692
Location: Germany
I use the metronome frequently, and every time I use it I regret it to have not used it earlier...

With metronome I find spots at which I need to speed up in order to keep up exactly with the metronome, or slow down to do so. The knowledge about those spots gives me the metronome. So for playing without metronome I try to remember those spots to speed up or slow down, that helps to get the speed evenly for pieces I like to have it evenly (like Bach WTC1 pieces).

But too for Chopin pieces, although I try not to forego a certain amount of rubato, even with metronome. Rubato means, to rob time and give back, on average the tempo should remain. Therefore, also and especially if one plays rubato, the metronome should be a useful tool.

There is a remark of a pupil of Chopin, that the metronome never left the place on Chopin's piano. That means perhaps, that Chopin did use it often itself too (or for his pupils, that's speculation here).

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:52 am 
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Location: damwoude
I only use my metronome with my violin haha :D on piano no.

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music is enough for lifetime but lifetime isn't enough for music 'rachmaninoff'

while composing I've got always an picture in my head 'beethoven'


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am
Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
MindenBlues wrote:
I use the metronome frequently, and every time I use it I regret it to have not used it earlier...

With metronome I find spots at which I need to speed up in order to keep up exactly with the metronome, or slow down to do so. The knowledge about those spots gives me the metronome. So for playing without metronome I try to remember those spots to speed up or slow down, that helps to get the speed evenly for pieces I like to have it evenly (like Bach WTC1 pieces).

But too for Chopin pieces, although I try not to forego a certain amount of rubato, even with metronome. Rubato means, to rob time and give back, on average the tempo should remain. Therefore, also and especially if one plays rubato, the metronome should be a useful tool.

There is a remark of a pupil of Chopin, that the metronome never left the place on Chopin's piano. That means perhaps, that Chopin did use it often itself too (or for his pupils, that's speculation here).


Thanks for all the feed back that was fruitful....
thank Pla.. very interesting indeed. Rubato...I rubato rh more instead of both hands. Have you tried just rubato the rh and keep the lh strict time-as said by chopin. but remember make sure the rh back in time by the end of pharse to the lh.

Again, I have not touched the metro. for many years or just for a look sitting in on the piano(I found it eventually). I have "proved" to my students that not to "showing off or something" , all got "A" gradings in their piano exams without use of metronome...strange.....or rather unparadox

Thanks Pal


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:14 am 
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This is the reason why chopinmusic.net is not available:
Code:
Domain name: CHOPINMUSIC.NET

Administrative Contact:
    Paul, Nico  pianistsk8er@gmail.com
    Waterloo Row
    Fredericton, New Brunswick E3B 1Z6
    CA
    506-555-1234
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    CA
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Registrar of Record: TUCOWS, INC.
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Domain servers in listed order:
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The DNS and domain record expired at 2006-08-24 so you need to call Nico Morin-Paul to understand what's going on.

I regurarly use metrone for scale practise to make sure I practise in the intended tempo.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:38 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:29 am
Posts: 692
Location: Germany
Quote:
thank Pla.. very interesting indeed. Rubato...I rubato rh more instead of both hands. Have you tried just rubato the rh and keep the lh strict time-as said by chopin. but remember make sure the rh back in time by the end of pharse to the lh.

Again, I have not touched the metro. for many years or just for a look sitting in on the piano(I found it eventually). I have "proved" to my students that not to "showing off or something" , all got "A" gradings in their piano exams without use of metronome...strange.....or rather unparadox


I tried the RH rubato with straight LH rhythm, and am not very well in that, but I think it is worth the effort. One needs true hand independency, and as I said, I had not heard someone playing this kind in in a consistent and convincing manner. Do you know any recording of someone playing a Chopin piece with true straight rhythm LH and convincing free rubato RH?

Regarding metronome, I don't think that a metronome is an adornment on a piano, I can only say that it helped me alot. And how do you know that it is or is not a useful tool for you or your students if you have not tried it yourself or recommended the students to see the result?

I like to add, it is no good thing im my opinion to use the metronome to force itself to speed up. Just the opposit - as aid to slow down, but with precise rhythm.

I think it is just human nature that one tends to play the overall rhythm faster if there are easy long notes and tends to slow down if there are runs or difficultier notes. So it happens to me, and the occasional metronome useage helps to find the correct rhythm. But maybe I am only a rhythm idiot and/or you and your students are in a complete another pianistic liga, I dunno. At least Chopin recommended the use, and my teacher in my youth time too (and she teached students on University level).

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Olaf Schmidt


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am
Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
Olaf, go to this site and it will expain to you the 3 differnt kind of rubato using mozart sonata as an"example", tell me what you think after youve tried it out.

www.musicteachemag.com/rubato.htm

by richard collin(professor)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:12 pm 
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Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
sorry must add "r".
www.musicteachermag.com/rubato.htm
Let me know?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:51 am 
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Location: Germany
Quote:
Olaf, go to this site and it will expain to you the 3 differnt kind of rubato using mozart sonata as an"example", tell me what you think after youve tried it out.


Thanks John, for the link.
Have you read the article yourself? It describes only 2 kinds of rubato, the same kinds which are already discussed here in another thread (Chopin interpretation thread, quotations from the "Eigeldinger" book). So to be honest, nothing really new to me. The professor forewent to mention that the original meaning of rubato is to "rob" time in the manner rob time - give back. So that the average timing remains. That is essential in my opinion. There is the famous book of H. Neuhaus (teacher of Gilels, Richter and other russian giants) "The art of piano playing", he explains it in more detail here. I can really recommend it to you if you have not read it already.

I disagree with the suggestion to use it on Bach inventions, because I don't like rubato here (just personal opinion.

And I disagree also, that the "RH only" rubato means always that the RH should lay back behind the LH. In my opinion "RH only" rubato is that the RH is free in both directions, can even come before the LH, not only laying back.

Otherwise nice article on rubato in my opinion.

Does anybody know of a professional recording of e.g. a Chopin waltz with the Mozart/Chopin style of rubato LH straight rhythm, RH loose like a singer? I never heard someone doing it consequently. In the recordings of old master Cortot I have, he used lots of rubato - but not really that "RH only" rubato. I think it is a pretty demanding thing to do it, otherwise one would here it more often, or not?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:12 am 
Hi, everyone.

I learned to use the metronome rather late in life because my first piano teacher didn't prescribe it. It's only now that I'm starting to use it since my new teacher noticed that I have a problem keeping a reasonably steady tempo and deciphering the correct rhythm from the sheet music.

Yes, I think that it would have helped me a lot more had I gotten used to the metronome when I was just starting to learn the piano. Since my lessons are infrequent now (my teacher lives in another city), the metronome has been an excellent practice aid and helps me in learning new pieces. Then when my teacher and I would meet, we could focus more on interpretation.

Having said that, it's also not good to be over dependent on the metronome as it may make one's playing sound mechanical. Josef Hoffman in particular was not fond of the metronome and advised his students to play the "internal" rhythm of the piece instead.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am
Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
Thanks to you ALL.
Olaf, this site was off yesterday???

I have collection of idllet brett(turkish pianist-spelt wrong again) on her chopin studies and sometimes she dliberately delay the rh.
Try on your fantasi improm ...the largo section, the first Ab note, just try that with a slight delayed entry on the ab..its interesting experiment.

No , i have not read that book yet-Ricter one..I should get one myself...

I bought the sony minidisc for recording.....with an extra external microphone...

Soon, you will hear my playing and start to critize....ha.......haaa


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:38 am
Posts: 647
Location: Sydney, Australia
MindenBlues wrote:
Quote:
Olaf, go to this site and it will expain to you the 3 differnt kind of rubato using mozart sonata as an"example", tell me what you think after youve tried it out.


Thanks John, for the link.
Have you read the article yourself? It describes only 2 kinds of rubato, the same kinds which are already discussed here in another thread (Chopin interpretation thread, quotations from the "Eigeldinger" book). So to be honest, nothing really new to me. The professor forewent to mention that the original meaning of rubato is to "rob" time in the manner rob time - give back. So that the average timing remains. That is essential in my opinion. There is the famous book of H. Neuhaus (teacher of Gilels, Richter and other russian giants) "The art of piano playing", he explains it in more detail here. I can really recommend it to you if you have not read it already.

I disagree with the suggestion to use it on Bach inventions, because I don't like rubato here (just personal opinion.

And I disagree also, that the "RH only" rubato means always that the RH should lay back behind the LH. In my opinion "RH only" rubato is that the RH is free in both directions, can even come before the LH, not only laying back.

Otherwise nice article on rubato in my opinion.



I have found some one using rubato playing with a slight rh late entry as compared to left hand describe to then article that you are disagreed with. I happened to listened to Yundi li's chopin noctrne op9 no 1 and 2 on his chopin cd. On the second movement of op9 no1 he some times delayed the rh which on score should be plyed TOGETHER...the delay was very little...you could say it as "not accurate"???? However, he won 2000 warsaw chopin competition at a young age.... You have to listen to his cd when you got a chance,,,,a

Does anybody know of a professional recording of e.g. a Chopin waltz with the Mozart/Chopin style of rubato LH straight rhythm, RH loose like a singer? I never heard someone doing it consequently. In the recordings of old master Cortot I have, he used lots of rubato - but not really that "RH only" rubato. I think it is a pretty demanding thing to do it, otherwise one would here it more often, or not?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:54 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:34 pm
Posts: 1278
robert wrote:
This is the reason why chopinmusic.net is not available:
Code:
Domain name: CHOPINMUSIC.NET

Administrative Contact:
    Paul, Nico  pianistsk8er@gmail.com
    Waterloo Row
    Fredericton, New Brunswick E3B 1Z6
    CA
    506-555-1234
Technical Contact:
    Paul, Nico  pianistsk8er@gmail.com
    Waterloo Row
    Fredericton, New Brunswick E3B 1Z6
    CA
    506-555-1234


Registration Service Provider:
    Canaca-com Inc., domain@canaca.com
    905-275-0723
    http://www.canaca.com
    This company may be contacted for domain login/passwords,
    DNS/Nameserver changes, and general domain support questions.


Registrar of Record: TUCOWS, INC.
Record last updated on 24-Aug-2005.
Record expires on 24-Aug-2006.
Record created on 24-Aug-2004.

Domain servers in listed order:
    NS2.CANACA.NET   66.49.254.254
    NS.CANACA.NET   66.49.194.253


Domain status: ok


The DNS and domain record expired at 2006-08-24 so you need to call Nico Morin-Paul to understand what's going on.




FYI, chopinmusic.net is now operational.


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