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 Post subject: Finger management
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:53 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:12 pm
Posts: 57
Location: The Netherlands
Dear piano enthousiasts,

The attached booklet contains a colorfull research about how a pianist can use the same methods for coping with his fingers as a manager does for coping with people.

In the course of the booklet, concepts of business science are introduced and applied to piano playing. In effect, the booklet develops a method for "finger management".

This version is a concept. The final version will be published on the innovation pages of the website of my consultancy bureau Vitha. (And possibly also on the piano society website?)

I encourage you all to read it and to send me your opinions, comments, suggestions and whatever else may come to your mind.

Sincerely,
-- Peter Schuttevaar


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:14 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Canada
Thank-you for sharing this, Peter! I just had time to give it a quick browse so far, but I will be reading it in detail and, with your permission, would love to share it with some of my teenage piano students who would benefit from this creative and imaginative approach.

Nicole Muller
Canada


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:02 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:12 pm
Posts: 57
Location: The Netherlands
Dear Nicole,

Thank you very much for the compliments.

Of course you can share the booklet with your students. I would be delighted to hear how they react to my ideas on finger management.

Sincerely,
-- Peter Schuttevaar


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:29 am
Posts: 692
Location: Germany
It is a great thing to spent the time to write a booklet about the own viewpoint on finger management - my deep respect for that! It is obvoius that you are very serious about what you write. I also would appreciate if you would share your final version of that here at PianoSociety.

The idea to treat every finger differently according to their different possibilities is something what can be traced back to Chopin. It is written somewhere in the book from Eigeldinger "Chopin as seen by his pupils" with an original citation from Chopin where he stated that, IIRC. Also in the famous standard piano instruction book by Heinrich Neuhaus (the teacher of Richter, Gilels and others) "The art of piano playing" it is picked up, I think.

So you are in good company with the basis of your theory and it also great to see a thing from a different viewpoint, in your case from the analogy of people management in the industry to finger management.

In my case it is so that if I try to work on finger independency (only to take an example) I take some preludes or fugues from WTC from Bach. That means I rather try to improve through playing, and practising, and foremost listening to the result as trigger for changing something. As tools to improve I tend to pick on certain pieces to play, or hints regarding hand position or something like that, but not so on theoretical things or analogies like business management (since I don't no something about that). Maybe I should change my approach, I dunno.

For instance, as I took a piano lesson with a concert pianist I got the hint how to play strong bass notes with a better tone as I used to do: That is instead to let the finger fall on the key, better to have the hand horizontal or even a bit below the keys and to let the finger jump while pressing the key. That has changed a bit my belief system, but the result works. Instead getting a harsh sound what occurs if you let your fingers drop down one gets a pleasant strong sonor sound if one let the finger push away from the key. Only an example what in my case helps much -theoretical things is not too handy for me to get results from, unfortunately. Sorry for coming a bit OT.

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Olaf Schmidt


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:27 pm 
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Location: The Netherlands
Hello Olaf,

Thanks for the feedback. Also nice to know that my theory is in good company.

To your remarks on making a better bas tone......

In the last chapter of the "finger management" booklet, i introduce a 5 stage approach for achieving excellence. The second stage is about trying all sorts of solutions. Like playing a bas tone with a falling arm, or use your arm as a lever to sweep you hand down. Like using force while pressing the key or only using arm weight. Etc... It seems like your discoverage on how to play the bas tone belongs in this second stage.

The thing is though, that one can do a lot more experimenting than what you did with the bass tone. One can change his belief system (as you call it) in many other ways during this second stage and find solutions to the (technical) problems that were found in the first stage of the approach. But to become motivated to do so much experimenting, one must first see the scope of the challenge that lies ahead. That is what stage 1 is about.

Your sense for practical solutions is exactly what is needed to make a good pianist. To let that practical sense be guided by a good method (like "finger management") is needed to become an excellent pianist.

Many regards,
-- Peter Schuttevaar


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:45 am
Posts: 87
Location: New Zealand
MindenBlues wrote:
The idea to treat every finger differently according to their different possibilities is something what can be traced back to Chopin. It is written somewhere in the book from Eigeldinger "Chopin as seen by his pupils" with an original citation from Chopin where he stated that, IIRC. Also in the famous standard piano instruction book by Heinrich Neuhaus (the teacher of Richter, Gilels and others) "The art of piano playing" it is picked up, I think.



Hey I was wondering where I can read those books. I don't think I will be able to buy them. Is there a site where I can read them?
Or can you send it to me.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:29 am
Posts: 692
Location: Germany
Strange - did quote a sentence from an older message, but that message was not put on top of the messages, instead behind the old message - deleted therefore the message and put on top again. :roll:

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Olaf Schmidt


Last edited by MindenBlues on Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:45 am
Posts: 87
Location: New Zealand
no thats ok, I was wondering if i can donwload them somewhere.
I prefer buying it.
Anyway, the finger management book helped me a lot. Thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:32 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:12 pm
Posts: 57
Location: The Netherlands
Dear Hunwoo,

Good to hear that the booklet is of benefit to you. Feel welcome to share your thoughts about it.


To Olaf..... You lost me....

This thread is about (the benefits of) the method that i uploaded to the forum, called "finger management". It is NOT about..
- the benefits of having a piano teacher
- you or me being a genius or not
- what types of leagues there are in pianoplaying
And it is defenitely not about comparing having a teacher with using a method. That would be something like comparing a soldier with his gun (and then ask which one of them is deadlier).

So why donĀ“t you stay on topic a bit?

Greetings from Holland


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:09 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:29 am
Posts: 692
Location: Germany
I try to remain on topic, and refer again to what you wrote:

pepasch wrote:
Your sense for practical solutions is exactly what is needed to make a good pianist. To let that practical sense be guided by a good method (like "finger management") is needed to become an excellent pianist.


I agree that in order to become an excellent pianist - or let's be more modest if you allow, to be on the right path toward that - it is good if one is guided by many good methods. I have read your "finger management" guide. I like the fact to treat every finger differently. That was however not new to me, I provided sources to read what Chopin and Neuhaus wrote to that theme already.

Beyond that, I have read your comparison with people management and consequences with interest and tried to find benefit for my piano playing approach. Unfortunately I find no really benefit, to say it frankly. In opposite I tried to put that having an excellent teacher can more likely give good and handy methods to become an excellent pianist.

I would find it great however, if other find benefit in your "finger management" method, so I encourage everyone to try out. Since good working methods are what helps to improve. Your essay only does not really work for me.

Giving critical feedback and showing an alternative concerning how to come to reliable methods to achieve excellence , is hopefully NOT off topic.

_________________
Olaf Schmidt


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:51 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:12 pm
Posts: 57
Location: The Netherlands
Hello Olaf,

Thank you for being back on track again. And thanks for reading the booklet. I appreciate it. And of course i respect the fact that this method does not work for everyone. But i feel that what appeals to you in it, (in your words: to treat every finger differently) does not portray the essence of the finger management method....

.... The essence is "to stimulate the emergence (and development) of a pianistic mid-office". Such a mid-office is a neural activity of the human nervous system that is specialized in translating musical ideas (of the pianist) into movement patterns (for his fingers). Such a neural mid-office is not a hypothetical phenomenon. It is described by many pianists. To interpret that phenomenon in terms of business concepts, and specificaly to describe it as a mid-office activity and use corresponding methods to stimulate its emergence and development, is highly innovative and goes well beyond the content of the familiar textbooks that you refer to.

The 5 stage method that i introduce is specificaly targeted at stimulating the type of neural activity, associated with this pianistic mid-office. But my method is just a first try, using myself as a laboratory animal. Perhaps not suited for everybody. I would be deligthed to hear about more effective methods!

Sincerely,
-- Peter Schuttevaar


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:12 pm
Posts: 57
Location: The Netherlands
Dear piano society members,

I have attached a new (and final) version of the finger management booklet. I changed the titles of the chapters so that the structure becomes more clear. And there are some changes and corrections.

The booklet is up on the innovation page of the website of my consultancy firm Vitha
(the innovation page is the only page in the English language, see http://www.vitha.nl/paginas/vaste_hand.htm ).

If you want, you can also publish it at the Piano society website under "publications" (as long as there is a referal to the page in the http link above, giving the context of the finger management project).

Many greatings from Peter


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